The question of flavor

[kryten]

I'm moving along nicely in my return to wine making after a 16 year long hiatus. I've got 3 x 5 gallon carboys with strong apple wine aging in a dark closet and another 6 gallons ready to start fermenting.

I've sampled some of my creation and had a few friends do the same. The problem that I seem to be having is with flavor.

The wine is pleasant enough and gives a nice warm feeling on the way down. The issue that my samplers and I agree upon is a lack of definate flavor, this stuff while not tasting bad doesn't really taste like anything anyone has tasted before!

Seeing that my must consistented entirely of wild and uncultivated apples, shouldn't my wine taste of apples?

I'm kind of lost here. Why doesn't my apple wine taste like apples?!

 

[botigol]

My experience is that apple-based beverages don't taste much like apple for at least a few months after fermentation completes. Additionally, the higher the abv, the longer it takes for those apple flavors to come back. That said, I have an apfelwein that after two years still doesn't taste like apple; more of a non-descript, dry, light white wine.

Did you ferment on the skins? How many pounds of apple per gallon did you use? Which yeast did you use?The wild apple part of the equation makes guessing the results more difficult as we don't know how tart, how much tannin or how much flavor those apples carry.

 

[wineforfun]

In general, apple is very light on flavor. Look at adding an fpac of apples or some apple concentrate to bring out more flavor.
Also, you ABV will play a part. If it is sitting up around 14-15%, it will be masking some of the flavor.

 

[BernardSmith]

Hi Kryten, Would you be willing to share your recipe? In my opinion, for example, table apples do not make a good apple wine, and while I have no reason to assume this, the addition of water to apples simply dilutes the already light flavor remarked upon , above, by Wineforfun. And I apologize if you think I am trying to teach my grandmother - s the saying goes - to suck eggs...

 

[Rocky]

Hi Kryten, welcome back to the madness.

Have you considered Apple Extract. You can buy it on line and at some LBS's. I have used Green Apple in Riesling with good results. If you do consider going this route, be sure to bench test with a sample of about 1/2 gallon and scale it up once you get the taste you are looking for. Be careful, a little (couple of drops) goes a long way. Good luck.

 

[Floandgary]

I have never done an apple wine but from all I have read I concur with the reply's above that apple does not carry a big flavor component. Maybe some research may direct you to a more favorable yeast for fermenting. Improvement could start there.

 

[kryten]

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions they are truly appreciated.

Did you ferment on the skins? How many pounds of apple per gallon did you use? Which yeast did you use?The wild apple part of the equation makes guessing the results more difficult as we don't know how tart, how much tannin or how much flavor those apples carry.

No, just whole juice with some smaller solids
3.5 bushels of crab and wild apples yielded just a tad over 5 gallons
Vintners Harvest SN9
Tartness and tannins very heavy, these are genuine 'spitters' from an abandoned farm pasture grounds.

My recipe is as follows:

I cored all these wild apples of at least 5 different varieties then put them all through a juicer. I then put this fresh apple juice through a fine mesh sieve just to get rid of some of the larger solid bits.

5 gallons of wild apple home pressed juice [pH 3.55]
5 pounds of unrefined raw sugar (crystallized evaporated cane juice) [enough to get initial SG to 1.100]
5 teaspoons Fermax [I understand that apple juice can be lacking in sufficient phosphates]
2 teaspoons pectic enzymes
5 Camden tablets (crushed)
1 Packet of Wine Yeast (Vintners Harvest SN9) [I know, bone dry]

After creating my must, dosing, and inoculation I waited 24 hours.
Added the yeast, covered the fermenter with a large towel.
3 weeks in primary, then 60 days in secondary. My ending SG: 0.998

I'm curious as to how long I should age this wine. I know that as stated above time aging can help bring out the apple flavor but at the same time I don't want to wait 2 years and have nothing happen! Is there a minimum time that if I don't get any changes I should not bother waiting any longer and just use apple extract?

 

[Dentman]

sub'd thanks for the recipe! i have an apple wine thats lacking in flavor as well.

 

[BernardSmith]

Do you know the TA (or equivalent - perhaps should be called MA)?Sometimes a lack of acidity in the flavor makes wine taste meh...

 

[kryten]

Do you know the TA (or equivalent - perhaps should be called MA)?Sometimes a lack of acidity in the flavor makes wine taste meh...

My review of available notes on TA boils down to this:
'if it tastes good, your TA is fine'

That said I added a malo, citric, tartic acid blend until my pH hit the above target pH just as a matter of preventing bacterial/mold infection of the must. After upping to acid level I did a taste test prior to my yeast dump and it tasted perfect for the level.

I just want to reiterate that this approach and recipe above has produced a great smelling & tasting if yet non-descript reddish golden colored wine. The only issue is the lack of apple aroma and taste. I'm looking for a good range in months that I should age this stuff before I give in and add organic apple flavor extract.

 

[BernardSmith]

My review of available notes on TA boils down to this:
'if it tastes good, your TA is fine'

That said I added a malo, citric, tartic acid blend until my pH hit the above target pH just as a matter of preventing bacterial/mold infection of the must. After upping to acid level I did a taste test prior to my yeast dump and it tasted perfect for the level.

I just want to reiterate that this approach and recipe above has produced a great smelling & tasting if yet non-descript reddish golden colored wine. The only issue is the lack of apple aroma and taste. I'm looking for a good range in months that I should age this stuff before I give in and add organic apple flavor extract.

Ah... but adding acid before you pitch the yeast does not say anything about the TA after the fermentation has ended. Indeed, I don't know if it typically makes any sense to add acid before you pitch yeast. I make a fair amount of mead (in small batches and the pH of the yeast before I add yeast and when the yeast is doing its job is unpredictable - (OK honey is a special case) but the pH has no bearing on the TA before I bottle

 

[kryten]

Taste test after fermentation proved a success. Balanced delicious and nice! Just no apple flavor.

 

[botigol]

At 15-16% abv, I say that you should give it at least a year to mellow before judging. Secondarily, at 15-16% abv, I have doubts as to if the apple flavor will ever return; too much alcohol masking the flavor properties.

 

[kryten]

Thank you for the information great ideas and information thanks!

 

[dorfie]

Not sure what your goal for this wine is, being dry or sweet, but you could try to add some sugar or honey to a few bench trials and see if that brings some of the apple back. I find honey adds some nice flavors that I like in my crab apple wine.

 

[Deezil]

Oh my, I hope you haven't done much!

It's gonna be beautiful, at 18-months...

If it goes down smooth, and you used basically *just apples* with no real water.. Just give it time, it'll blow your socks off!

My 11-12% Apple(-Pear), usually takes about 18 months. With a higher ABV, you might have to add another 6 months for the same 'blow you away' profile I'm talking about..

But, give 'er time!

 

[kryten]

Oh my, I hope you haven't done much!

It's gonna be beautiful, at 18-months...

If it goes down smooth, and you used basically *just apples* with no real water.. Just give it time, it'll blow your socks off!

My 11-12% Apple(-Pear), usually takes about 18 months. With a higher ABV, you might have to add another 6 months for the same 'blow you away' profile I'm talking about..

But, give 'er time!

Many thanks to you. I'm willing to wait and give time if it is worth the wait. Waiting for quality results is worth while, I just hate waiting for nothing when I could be using my carboys and fermentation tanks for other worthwhile endeavors.

I'm going to age for the 18 months and see what becomes of the 20 gallons I've made.

 

[Brian]

What I have done in the past is used frozen apple juice concentrate. Just thaw and add to taste. As long as you have used sorbate it will not ferment and it will sweeten and add apple flavor at the same time. I do this with apple and pear. If it is already as sweet as you like it then I would not add this since it is basically apple flavored sugar. haha Good luck!

 

[kryten]

Yes, I've considered that option. The tastes of my closest friends and I in fermented beverages tend toward the dryer side. So after the 18 months aging if it needs more apple flavor I'm inclined to use certified organic apple extract.

 

[heatherd]

Yes, I've considered that option. The tastes of my closest friends and I in fermented beverages tend toward the dryer side. So after the 18 months aging if it needs more apple flavor I'm inclined to use certified organic apple extract.

That makes sense.