Tips for better reds

[vayne’s vino]

Hi folks. As a newbie to the forum, maybe I get a pass on my long first post?

Over the last 3-4 years I've used several different 6gal wine extract kits; see the list below. I'm here because I'm looking for tips/tweaks that might take the reds from "drinkable" or "barely drinkable" to "good". The Sav Blancs have all been good, after at least 6 months in the bottle.

My definition of good: I have no hesitation giving bottles to friends.

Kits I've used:
WineXpert, Reserve Californian Cabernet Sauvignon
Finer Wine Kits, Pinot Noir Tavola
WineXpert Private Reserve, Adelaide Hills Sav Blanc
WineXpert Private Reserve, Languedoc Bordeaux Style
RJS Cru Select, New Zealand Sav Blanc (2)
WineCo Estate Series, Chateau du Roi
Cru International, Meritage Style

I realize these reds are different styles, and I don't expect them to taste much like the grape variety they represent, but some, like the Pinot Noir, came out suitable only for Sangria or cooking. I don't taste offensive flavors, it's just "weak" or in some cases still "fresh", even after a year and a half in the bottle.

Methods:
- In all cases (pun intended) I followed the instructions to the letter, except for some timing on the second racking before bottling. I typically rack only twice, the second one just before bottling.
- SG after fermentation has been 0.994-0.998.
- I degas with a drill and attachment; ~10 minutes
- Used the kit-supplied fining agents
- Aging happens in my basement where the temp is pretty stable, upper 60’s.

Possible areas of concern:
- too much head space after the first rack (corrected in later brews)
- when topping up, I've used distilled water - should probably use another wine
- water source. I use our well water, which tastes great, but it's sometimes on the acidic side. I don't know the mineral content, but it's not particularly hard or soft.
- Aging in the basement measn ocassional exposure to fumes, like expoxy, varnish, etc.

Some things I've already learned from this forum (thanks all!):
- try bulk aging (Oak barrel maybe?)

Thanks for reading.

 

[winemaker81]

Welcome to WMT.

Don't to up with water. It just dilutes the wine. Use a compatible wine.

For reds, as a skin pack or raisins.

You're degassing way too long.

A lot of us skip the K&C -- especially with reds, if you're bulk aging at least 6 months, the wine will probably clear on it's own.

 

[ratflinger]

Look at Joe's long thread here, lots of tips.
https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/tweeking-cheap-kits.51904/

 

[sour_grapes]

Welcome to WMT!

Can you try to describe in what ways you think your wines to date have fallen short?

 

[David Violante]

Welcome to WMT! Soak it all in. There's a lot of great information and friendly folks here. Read, search, and ask away.

 

[Rice_Guy]

welcome to WMT

When you are tasting, flavors are sensed in waves. ex A sweet followed by acid at ten seconds followed by astringent at thirty seconds and that may last 90 to 120 seconds.
Sharp acidic is dealt with by running MLF or chilling to precipitate tartrates.
Sharpness from astringency is normally dealt with by aging. The cause is tannins which could be removed by adding gelatin (any protein) but tannin gives shelf life so most folks would let it stay.
A burn in the back of the throat swallowing is caused by high levels of oxygen creating acetaldehyde. This is dealt with by increasing metabisulphite doses or by changing your process to exclude more oxygen.

There are a number of folks on WMT from northern Virginia who can help with what they taste. (ex I have grandkids and am near DC now). Practice tasting since it can show the cause as “still fresh” from high tannin vs sharpness from high total oxygen.

 

[mainshipfred]

Welcome to WMT, I'm in Chantilly, where are you in NOVA?


It's hard for me to comment on kit wines since I was never a fan. We are fortunate to be living in arguably the fastest growing wine region in the country and have access to fresh grapes. Some folks don't have that luxury and the only option is kits or grapes and juice from California. With kits you have the opportunity to make wine all year long but otherwise it's seasonal. In my opinion and experience you have a better chance with white kits than reds simply due to the process of extraction. I could never understand how without maceration on the skins a red wine could get the color, tannins or other phenols from the fruit. Plus since they are supposedly not able to go through MLF you are getting a wine with high malic content rather than lactic. If you are trying to compare a commercial or grape wine to a kit you are going have a different flavor profile.

If you would like I have a bulk supply of aging and finishing tannins I could let you try. I also have glycerol and gum arabic which could potentially add some body to your wine. All of which require doing bench trials and not much help if your wine is bottled.

Let me know if you would like to try experiment with any or all of these and I can give you some.

 

[Fitz]

Welcome to WMT!

 

[vayne’s vino]

Welcome to WMT.

Don't to up with water. It just dilutes the wine. Use a compatible wine.

For reds, as a skin pack or raisins.

You're degassing way too long.

A lot of us skip the K&C -- especially with reds, if you're bulk aging at least 6 months, the wine will probably clear on it's own.

Many thanks. I’ll be trying these suggestions. One kit did have skins, and that’s the best of the bunch - meets my ‘good’ definition.
Raisins are intriguing.

 

[BPL]

A few suggestions and thoughts. Raisins are a possibility. I tried using them in wines and did not like the taste. YMMV. I suggest leaving them out.

When I get a kit, the first think I do is throw the directions away. Most all wines are made exactly the same. I've found that even the best juice in kits lacks something, it might be acidity, or the juice is too thin (lower gravity) when adding water, or there is always a better yeast choice that comes in the kits.

As an example, I am making a premium Super Tuscan kit now. it came with skins, seeds, and all the necessary ingredients. My first step was to throw the directions away (although very detailed). All the additives like nutrients, starter packs, stabilizing components, etc. went into the garbage also.

The first step was of course to add water to the juice. I added what was called for (level to 6 gallons). I tested the gravity, and it was about 1.120. When I tested the pH, I was shocked to fine it was 4.02 with a T/A of ~3.8. I added water to drop the gravity to 1.10 and tweaked the final pH to 3.6 with a T/A of ~5. i used the skins but added double the amount. I also added Opti-Red to stabilize the color and smooth out tannins. I put the RC212 yeast that came with the kit in my fridge and used 8 grams of D254, (instead of the 5 grams that came in the kit). I hydrated the yeast with GoFerm Sterol Flash and supplemented with appropriate amounts of Fermaid O in two stages.

IMO, part of the issue with kits are what is given in the contents. With a little investigation of the best products to use for fresh grapes are the same ones that can be used on kits. I typically use the same methods (generally) on all my kit wines. Aging correctly is what turns the corner on good tasting wines. IMO, the changes above have taken a WE kit from 'okay-take it or leave it' to really GOOD. The premium kits have gone from, "I'm not sure I want to make this again (following directions)", to outstanding and the best wines I've tasted.

Of course this is just what I have found out over the years that makes the best wines. I am not suggesting you do the same or take the same chances on expensive kits. I hope this provides some insights on kit wines.

Keep in mind that kits are manufactured for the success of the customer and not necessarily for the best tasting wines.

All the best.

Barry

 

[KaptKanga]

Hi folks. As a newbie to the forum, maybe I get a pass on my long first post?

Over the last 3-4 years I've used several different 6gal wine extract kits; see the list below. I'm here because I'm looking for tips/tweaks that might take the reds from "drinkable" or "barely drinkable" to "good". The Sav Blancs have all been good, after at least 6 months in the bottle.

My definition of good: I have no hesitation giving bottles to friends.

Kits I've used:
WineXpert, Reserve Californian Cabernet Sauvignon
Finer Wine Kits, Pinot Noir Tavola
WineXpert Private Reserve, Adelaide Hills Sav Blanc
WineXpert Private Reserve, Languedoc Bordeaux Style
RJS Cru Select, New Zealand Sav Blanc (2)
WineCo Estate Series, Chateau du Roi
Cru International, Meritage Style

I realize these reds are different styles, and I don't expect them to taste much like the grape variety they represent, but some, like the Pinot Noir, came out suitable only for Sangria or cooking. I don't taste offensive flavors, it's just "weak" or in some cases still "fresh", even after a year and a half in the bottle.

Methods:
- In all cases (pun intended) I followed the instructions to the letter, except for some timing on the second racking before bottling. I typically rack only twice, the second one just before bottling.
- SG after fermentation has been 0.994-0.998.
- I degas with a drill and attachment; ~10 minutes
- Used the kit-supplied fining agents
- Aging happens in my basement where the temp is pretty stable, upper 60’s.

Possible areas of concern:
- too much head space after the first rack (corrected in later brews)
- when topping up, I've used distilled water - should probably use another wine
- water source. I use our well water, which tastes great, but it's sometimes on the acidic side. I don't know the mineral content, but it's not particularly hard or soft.
- Aging in the basement measn ocassional exposure to fumes, like expoxy, varnish, etc.

Some things I've already learned from this forum (thanks all!):
- try bulk aging (Oak barrel maybe?)

Thanks for reading.

Welcome from a newbie

 

[vayne’s vino]

welcome to WMT

When you are tasting, flavors are sensed in waves. ex A sweet followed by acid at ten seconds followed by astringent at thirty seconds and that may last 90 to 120 seconds.
Sharp acidic is dealt with by running MLF or chilling to precipitate tartrates.
Sharpness from astringency is normally dealt with by aging. The cause is tannins which could be removed by adding gelatin (any protein) but tannin gives shelf life so most folks would let it stay.
A burn in the back of the throat swallowing is caused by high levels of oxygen creating acetaldehyde. This is dealt with by increasing metabisulphite doses or by changing your process to exclude more oxygen.

There are a number of folks on WMT from northern Virginia who can help with what they taste. (ex I have grandkids and am near DC now). Practice tasting since it can show the cause as “still fresh” from high tannin vs sharpness from high total oxygen.

Thank you. I’ve got so much to learn. This forum is amazing.

 

[vayne’s vino]

Welcome to WMT, I'm in Chantilly, where are you in NOVA?


It's hard for me to comment on kit wines since I was never a fan. We are fortunate to be living in arguably the fastest growing wine region in the country and have access to fresh grapes. Some folks don't have that luxury and the only option is kits or grapes and juice from California. With kits you have the opportunity to make wine all year long but otherwise it's seasonal. In my opinion and experience you have a better chance with white kits than reds simply due to the process of extraction. I could never understand how without maceration on the skins a red wine could get the color, tannins or other phenols from the fruit. Plus since they are supposedly not able to go through MLF you are getting a wine with high malic content rather than lactic. If you are trying to compare a commercial or grape wine to a kit you are going have a different flavor profile.

If you would like I have a bulk supply of aging and finishing tannins I could let you try. I also have glycerol and gum arabic which could potentially add some body to your wine. All of which require doing bench trials and not much help if your wine is bottled.

Let me know if you would like to try experiment with any or all of these and I can give you some.

I’m close by, Clifton. Everything is bottled now, but I’d love to talk about options to kits.
How does exchanging contact info work on the forum?

 

[cmason1957]

I’m close by, Clifton. Everything is bottled now, but I’d love to talk about options to kits.
How does exchanging contact info work on the forum?

Do it via private message or exchange emails via private message.

 

[winemaker81]

Everything is bottled now, but I’d love to talk about options to kits.

We have a forum dedicated to kits:

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/forums/kit-winemaking.84/

 

[Christopher Anderson]

Welcome to WMT. I have noticed that all the usual suspects have commented with their normal excellent comments. :>} .
since you have been doing this for a few years, you have learned that everything is not as it seems. Almost all kits are designed for making a successful wine. as BPL stated: Keep in mind that kits are manufactured for the success of the customer and not necessarily for the best tasting wines.
After being on this forum for almost a year and making wine for about 2, I have learned a lot. This is a hobby. EXPERIMENT. Use different yeasts, mix ingredients into the wines. BLEND your wines. That has made a BIG difference in the taste and mouth feel. I currently have about 400 bottles (I make a lot of kits now!) and over the last few months, I have blended CS with Syrah and Merlot. Last blend, I took 4 bottles of CS (from 4 different wine kit makers) and blended with 2 bottles of Syrah and 1 of Merlot. then bottled them. The sum is much better than the parts.
Just my thoughts as still a newbie.

 

[winemaker81]

Welcome to WMT. I have noticed that all the usual suspects have commented with their normal excellent comments. :>} .
since you have been doing this for a few years, you have learned that everything is not as it seems. Almost all kits are designed for making a successful wine. as BPL stated: Keep in mind that kits are manufactured for the success of the customer and not necessarily for the best tasting wines.
After being on this forum for almost a year and making wine for about 2, I have learned a lot. This is a hobby. EXPERIMENT. Use different yeasts, mix ingredients into the wines. BLEND your wines. That has made a BIG difference in the taste and mouth feel. I currently have about 400 bottles (I make a lot of kits now!) and over the last few months, I have blended CS with Syrah and Merlot. Last blend, I took 4 bottles of CS (from 4 different wine kit makers) and blended with 2 bottles of Syrah and 1 of Merlot. then bottled them. The sum is much better than the parts.
Just my thoughts as still a newbie.

This is good advice, but let's add the caveat that experimenting with small quantities is a good idea.

When we bench test, I make 100 ml samples, which works well. If one is really objectionable, tossing the remainder is not a big deal.

 

[Christopher Anderson]

This is good advice, but let's add the caveat that experimenting with small quantities is a good idea.

When we bench test, I make 100 ml samples, which works well. If one is really objectionable, tossing the remainder is not a big deal.

Good. But go big or go home. If all the wines are drinkable, why would blending them make them less drinkable?

 

[winemaker81]

Good. But go big or go home. If all the wines are drinkable, why would blending them make them less drinkable?

Simply because not all blends work out as expected. My 2023 Cabernet Franc and Cabernet Sauvignon are case in point.

We planned roughly for CF 60 / CS 30 / Merlot 10 AND CS 60 / CF 30 / Merlot 10, based upon commercial wines we like. In the first, the CS detracted from the CF. In the second the CF overpowered the CS.

Our final results were CF 100 (no blend) and CS 90 / CF 10 / Merlot 10. Bench testing indicated we could not improve the CF, while as CS-heavy blend was superior to the plain CS.

@Rice_Guy has stated that winemaking is cooking. That makes me think of an incident from many moons ago. A friend made a cinnamon pie. It was supposed to be an apple pie, but he added something like 2 Tbsp cinnamon instead of 1 tsp. I really like cinnamon ... as a seasoning, not the as the main course. The pie was inedible.

All things in their proper proportion ...

 

[VinesnBines]

Simply because not all blends work out as expected. My 2023 Cabernet Franc and Cabernet Sauvignon are case in point.

We planned roughly for CF 60 / CS 30 / Merlot 10 AND CS 60 / CF 30 / Merlot 10, based upon commercial wines we like. In the first, the CS detracted from the CF. In the second the CF overpowered the CS.

Our final results were CF 100 (no blend) and CS 90 / CF 10 / Merlot 10. Bench testing indicated we could not improve the CF, while as CS-heavy blend was superior to the plain CS.

@Rice_Guy has stated that winemaking is cooking. That makes me think of an incident from many moons ago. A friend made a cinnamon pie. It was supposed to be an apple pie, but he added something like 2 Tbsp cinnamon instead of 1 tsp. I really like cinnamon ... as a seasoning, not the as the main course. The pie was inedible.

All things in their proper proportion ...

To add to blend stories. Last year we were bench testing Foch to blend with Chambourcin. Our testers guessed we would like the 50/50 blend best but it was the bottom of the list.
This week we did a quick bench test of two Chelois batches. Again the 50/50 blend was not the best.
Assuming may end up with something unpleasant and certainly is not the best method for blending.