To much headspace, what to do?

[Morten]

I have 20 litres of red wine for aging in my 23 litre glass carboy. 3 litres of headspace, that can't be a good thing? What can I do? I don't have wine to top up with.

 

[heatherd]

I have 20 litres of red wine for aging in my 23 litre glass carboy. 3 litres of headspace, that can't be a good thing? What can I do? I don't have wine to top up with.

I'd buy some similar wine for topping up.

 

[Jim Welch]

Or get a 19 L Carboy. You must eliminate that headspace, one way or the other. I wouldn’t use water though, that’s way too much imo.

 

[BigDaveK]

A plastic carboy is only 2-3 times the price of a similar wine AND you would have an extra carboy. Stopper size is different for plastic so you'd need that too. An extra carboy is never a bad thing!

 

[Rice_Guy]

* If it stays that way a week I wouldn’t worry, a month you probably will start to taste it.
* I have check valves (took one day to get from Granger) and a vacuum pump. Next I intentionally do not degas early. With my choices I would pull a vacuum > let CO2 bubble out > pull a vacuum a second time > let the vacuum equilibrate naturally and just let it sit.

About a year ago we had a discussion about holding vacuum and vacuvin stoppers and check valves
so I killed a few days testing hardware. > results
View attachment 85669
Conclusions
* An effective vacuum set up needs to have the same seals as one would use with gas lines
* old corks get hard and are not effective at holding a vacuum
* a carboy with wine in it will release CO2 and not hold a vacuum as long as a dry system
(working definition of a good enough degassed wine was the carboy can hold a five inch Hg vacuum for 30 minutes)
* The rate of change decreases as the pressure differential decreases, There was still a slight difference on gage at thirteen months with the empty flask
* A new vacuvin check valve is effective at holding vacuum
* A new plastic check valve is effective at holding vacuum (polysulphone and nylon construction)
* To know how well a hardware setup is performing one needs to have a vacuum gage

photo setup 1
photo setup 2

(The cyser that was in this test stayed closed up six months and at contest this spring took a blue ribbon.)
* I have weighted LDPE one inch rod from Granger which I can fill volume with.
* as noted buy a bag in box wine to top off this wine. Save the bag for next time.
* move the wine to a “bag in box“ bag. it will need to be supported but can be run at zero head space. ( I have fermented in the four gallon size EvOH bags)
* add a polyethylene bag (food grade) fill with water and one marble/ stainless bolt, seal and sink it in the carboy.

 

[Neb Farmer]

Sometimes it is difficult to utilize a 5 or 6 gallon carboy because of the excess headspace. I have found one of the simplist sollutions is to use a 3 gallon and a couple of one gallons jugs. Sometimes you end up with just 750 ml bottle left over, which you can put an airlock on, or just sip it away.
But DEFINITELY get rid of the excess headspace. It WILL ruin your wine.

 

[Morten]

A plastic carboy is only 2-3 times the price of a similar wine AND you would have an extra carboy. Stopper size is different for plastic so you'd need that too. An extra carboy is never a bad thing!

But is plastic carboy ok for long time aging?

 

[Jim Welch]

But is plastic carboy ok for long time aging?

PET plastic is safe, food grade of course though I’m not sure if there is a non food grade PET.

 

[Jim Welch]

If you stay in any of the fermented beverage hobbies you WILL spend more money, cry once my friend.

 

[Morten]

* If it stays that way a week I wouldn’t worry, a month you probably will start to taste it.
* I have check valves (took one day to get from Granger) and a vacuum pump. Next I intentionally do not degas early. With my choices I would pull a vacuum > let CO2 bubble out > pull a vacuum a second time > let the vacuum equilibrate naturally and just let it sit.

(The cyser that was in this test stayed closed up six months and at contest this spring took a blue ribbon.)
* I have weighted LDPE one inch rod from Granger which I can fill volume with.
* as noted buy a bag in box wine to top off this wine. Save the bag for next time.
* move the wine to a “bag in box“ bag. it will need to be supported but can be run at zero head space. ( I have fermented in the four gallon size EvOH bags)
* add a polyethylene bag (food grade) fill with water and one marble/ stainless bolt, seal and sink it in the carboy.

Liked the idea of aging in wine bags. But is that goid enough for long time aging?

 

[Morten]

PET plastic is safe, food grade of course though I’m not sure if there is a non food grade PET.

Was thinking of that they may let O2 in over time. Glass won't I know.

 

[Rice_Guy]

A wine bag is good enough for commercial folks to age/ warehouse and distribute wine.Look at code dates to see if the BIB folks put two years on the package.
PET and EvOH both have transmission rates in the range of .001 mg/ sq ft.(day?) Glass is rated at 0 but still has some oxygen penetration in the cap area. ,,, What is significant, measurements would say bottling over 5mg/ liter) and racking (about 1mg/ liter) and pressing the juice are significantly higher risk. HUMM ,,, barrels are bad too so never think of a barrel. ,,, If you are squeaky clean you’ll even give up bottling. ,,,

Liked the idea of aging in wine bags. But is that goid enough for long time aging?

My experience would say bottle shock (bottling) is a major risk but months in a carboy are managed with normal SO2 addition.

 

[Morten]

A wine bag is good enough for commercial folks to age/ warehouse and distribute wine.Look at code dates to see if the BIB folks put two years on the package.
PET and EvOH both have transmission rates in the range of .001 mg/ sq ft.(day?) Glass is rated at 0 but still has some oxygen penetration in the cap area. ,,, What is significant, measurements would say bottling over 5mg/ liter) and racking (about 1mg/ liter) and pressing the juice are significantly higher risk. HUMM ,,, barrels are bad too so never think of a barrel. ,,, If you are squeaky clean you’ll even give up bottling. ,,,

My experience would say bottle shock (bottling) is a major risk but months in a carboy are managed with normal SO2 addition.

,

So, it should be OK to age in wine bags for, say a year?

 

[Rice_Guy]

Yes, the biggest problem has been supporting the bag. As a flexible it is easy to mix up lees by moving/ touching the bag.

So, it should be OK to age in wine bags for, say a year?

 

[Morten]

Yes, the biggest problem has been supporting the bag. As a flexible it is easy to mix up lees by moving/ touching the bag.

Transfering to bottles from the bags, now that will be a challenge...

 

[RBAllan]

I'd buy some similar wine for topping up.

A friend of mine has suggested a trick that is sometimes used when you have too much headspace. which is to take cleaned marbles and drop them in to the carboy until the level of the wine reaches the desired level. More a solution for 1 or 2 gallon carboys, though.

 

[Neil]

I made up some vacuum bags from my vacuum food saver. Attached picture is the first attempt. I made the later ones long and thin, with double seals because I am cautious. If you taper the top its easier to get the bung back in the demijohn. I fill them with water and it takes up the head space nicely.

The only downsides I can see ae the potential for a leak (which hopefully the double seals eliminates) and the possibility of sediment on the bag being disturbed when you empty it for racking.

 

[mainshipfred]

* If it stays that way a week I wouldn’t worry, a month you probably will start to taste it.
* I have check valves (took one day to get from Granger) and a vacuum pump. Next I intentionally do not degas early. With my choices I would pull a vacuum > let CO2 bubble out > pull a vacuum a second time > let the vacuum equilibrate naturally and just let it sit.

(The cyser that was in this test stayed closed up six months and at contest this spring took a blue ribbon.)
* I have weighted LDPE one inch rod from Granger which I can fill volume with.
* as noted buy a bag in box wine to top off this wine. Save the bag for next time.
* move the wine to a “bag in box“ bag. it will need to be supported but can be run at zero head space. ( I have fermented in the four gallon size EvOH bags)
* add a polyethylene bag (food grade) fill with water and one marble/ stainless bolt, seal and sink it in the carboy.

And I just got a bottle of that cyster, lucky me.

 

[Rice_Guy]

transfer if clean isn’t hard.
transfer if there are lees can be as hard as from a carboy, as in photo from the old post below, it needs to be supported. The container has a squash plate built in to adjust the container volume.

Transfering to bottles from the bags, now that will be a challenge...

I have made wine in bag in box wine bags. EVOH you can use a standard cork, you have to support the opening, there is low oxygen transmission so the flavor is good, this could be used after a cubitainer/ one month to a year, racking is a little harder since the lees can be disturbed, it requires a box or enclosure of some type.
View attachment 80598