WineXpert Top Kits vs. $25 Commercial Wine

[Jack on Rainy]

an update to my earlier posts on this thread.
We are finding our WE reds have started to come around meaning they are starting to be drinkable with less to no KT as they get close to 18 months. Bouquet is not very noticeable. They are much better after being open at 60 degrees(the temp of the cupboard we store them in after opening) for 24 hrs. Bouquet is still lacking even then but then what are you looking for? We hoped for wines to compete with a $12 to $15 range and we are approaching that, especially as all commercial wines get more expensive.


Our Mosti reds, while thankfully lacking the same level of KT as WE,are still not very exciting and lacking bouquet. The oldest is 17 months. But, we discovered something this winter about our wine storage area that we didn't know before. There are areas that are around 48 to 50 degees for 4 to 6 months which slows development down. The wines that are in the upper part of our cellar at 55-60 dgrees are showing more promise.


Our one CC kit, the Super Tuscan, was bottled last week after 10 months of bulk aging. Tastings during bulk aging have lead us to purchase another kit of that brand.


Our whites, when viewed as compared to the commercial 10 - 12$ range have been an unqualified success. Our best, the Chardillon done with battonage, is gone and its replacement, an AJChardonnaywas bottled last weekend andI hope to wait until 2010 to drink that. The AJ Trebbiano is 13 months and I like it as my "drink while cooking" wine of choice even in winter.


We are now adding supplemental oak to all of our reds,and extendinglees contact to all of our wines. And, we are making changes to our cellar to increase the low end temp.


Do we think our wines compare with a 25$ commercial - no way! Do we think this hobby is still worth pursuing - you bet! (And thank God for a wife who participates and enjoys my obsession!)


Please update on your progress and thoughts.
Thanks

 

[Scott B]

Does anyone have any ideas on how to make these kits turn out as good as a $25 commercial wine?


What are the Commercial Co. doing different?

 

[JimCook]

Scott,


To answer your second questions, the main difference is using real grapes vs. using the juice/concentrate. I would guess that the flash pasteurization affects the base quality as well, as heat breaks down subtle organic compounds. A recent conversation with George noted that kit wines will top out around 80-85% of the solids that would be found in wine made from fresh grapes. Combine that with the vineyard source of the grapes and if you were to compare a kit wine to a Shafer Hillside Select Cabernet Sauvignon, I would hazard to guess there would never be a comparison.


Another thing that the commercial wine companies are doing that most home winemakers may skirt is using time - take a look at the $25 commercial wines at your local wine merchant and see the vintage dates on these bottles. Compare that as well to anything that has a rating listed -see what years are handy. If a commercial winery is waiting three years on a bottle of wine before it even gets released to the stores, that's a big difference between the 'drink in six weeks' kind of idea that some kit manufacturers portray.


Commercial wineries will play with blends and additives to help their wines show a greater sense of balance. While blending cannot turn a bad wine into a good wine, it can help round out or touch up some of the tasting experience. Remember that in the California, for example,a bottle labeled as Cabernet Sauvignon only needs to be 75% Cab to be labeled as a single varietal wine.


Finally, the barrel aging that commercial wine companies use will concentrate the flavor of the wine through the evaporation of water from the barrel and the micro-oxygenation of the wine. Most home winemakers age in glass or sometimes small barrels, which may not always allow for this same kind of concentrating effect.


- Jim

 

[Waldo]

Scott,


To answer your second questions, the main difference is using real grapes vs. using the juice/concentrate. I would guess that the flash pasteurization affects the base quality as well, as heat breaks down subtle organic compounds. A recent conversation with George noted that kit wines will top out around 80-85% of the solids that would be found in wine made from fresh grapes. Combine that with the vineyard source of the grapes and if you were to compare a kit wine to a Shafer Hillside Select Cabernet Sauvignon, I would hazard to guess there would never be a comparison.


Another thing that the commercial wine companies are doing that most home winemakers may skirt is using time - take a look at the $25 commercial wines at your local wine merchant and see the vintage dates on these bottles. Compare that as well to anything that has a rating listed -see what years are handy. If a commercial winery is waiting three years on a bottle of wine before it even gets released to the stores, that's a big difference between the 'drink in six weeks' kind of idea that some kit manufacturers portray.


Commercial wineries will play with blends and additives to help their wines show a greater sense of balance. While blending cannot turn a bad wine into a good wine, it can help round out or touch up some of the tasting experience. Remember that in the California, for example,a bottle labeled as Cabernet Sauvignon only needs to be 75% Cab to be labeled as a single varietal wine.


Finally, the barrel aging that commercial wine companies use will concentrate the flavor of the wine through the evaporation of water from the barrel and the micro-oxygenation of the wine. Most home winemakers age in glass or sometimes small barrels, which may not always allow for this same kind of concentrating effect.

 

[unaFORDable]

Ok, now how did the two of you manage to post the exact same thing???

Jack, thanks for your summery on your wines, it's lead me to get another CC kit. Plus I'll be sticking with the AJ from mosti when I can afford them. The smaller kits I'll still keep doing for some summer fast drinking stuff. Plus I can open them for "guests" that don't know an Amarone from a wine cooler!!

 

[grapeman]

Last evening I was going to make some post about how smart and through explanation that was Waldo, but I got distracted before I could. I often read backwards in the posts, so Waldo's came before I read Jim's. Then this morning I read it and just about fall off the chair!


I thought, man, Waldo is really getting quite verbal in his answers here! Wow. ROFLMAO

 

[JimCook]

It was late when I saw Waldo's post and I was reading along with this, "I've read this before" kind of feeling before I figured out what was going on.


- Jim

 

[TankCa]

Why do kits do so well in the WineMakers Mag Competition going head to head with wine from fresh grapes while at the same time will not produce a wine comparable to a $25 bottle of commercial wine?

 

[JimCook]

TankCa,


I know that George has a good amount of experience with the development of the Mosti Mondiale Meglioli kits and all of his notes seem to show that the Meglioli kits are a complete step above the rest of the kits. I'm also guessing that all of this comparison will depend on which $25 a specific wine is being compared against.


Looking at the medal winning wines, the vast majority are made from kits. It's possible the number of kit entries compared to fresh fruit entries are very large. The grand champion wines for the last four years (the only years which results I can find) have all been fresh grape wines, as have the best of show reds and whites. In the category of Sauvignon Blanc, for example, last year had about 12 fresh grape medals out of a total of 26 medals with 101 entries for the category. If we knew how many fresh grape entries were in that category, a more accurate statistic could be calculated.


As a note that's relevant to the vs. $25/bottle 'test' and based on my conversations with George and my own experiences, more and more I focus on the highest and best quality of the source fruit/juice. I may very well make the bulk of my wine kit purchases for 2010 Meglioli kits.


- Jim

 

[TankCa]

Jim:


I've been at this hobby for about 2 years (seriously fora year) and want to make the best wine I can (fresh or kit). My first batch is closing in on 2 years (a WE Lodi OVZ) and has improved significantly over just the past 8 months but is still not comparable to $10 Ravenswood Lodi OVZ. I must admit, as my first kit there could be some operator error involved. Most of the rest of my wine is one year or less and too early to tell how good it will be.


I have roughly 250 bottles of commercial wine ranging anywhere from $8 to $150, average is $35 +/-, half I'm holding for long term cellaring. I also have about 250 bottlesor so I've made from kits, all high end (including 3 Meglioli's) and several others bulk aging.
I truly love this hobby but nothing I have made so far compares (yet) with, let say, a Mondavi Napa Cab (thier low/mid-range) that sells for $19.99 much less their Oakville Cab that sells for $35. I'd be very happy to get close to either of these.


I'm not slowing down and will be trying Brehm grape must in the near future, along with other kits to see how that goes and keep learning.


The only thing missing to really tell how good of wine I can make is "time".


Bottled
<UL>
<LI>WE Crushendo Supertuscan</LI>
<LI>WE Crushendo Shiraz</LI>
<LI>MM Bodega Port - exception-this one is pretty good already</LI>
<LI>MM Meglioli Barolo</LI>
<LI>MM Meglioli Rojo Grande</LI>
<LI>MM Meglioli Rojo Intenso</LI>
<LI>WE Viognier - only white and it does compare with a commercial</LI>
<LI>CC Malbec - barrel aged</LI>
<LI>RJS Dashwood Pinot</LI>
<LI>2007 Merlot from fresh grapes</LI>[/list]
Bulk aging
<UL>
<LI>WE Crushendo Sonoma Cab - barrel aged</LI>
<LI>2008 Merlot from fresh grapes - barrel aged</LI>
<LI>MM AJ Caberlot - fermented on Merlot pomice - barrel aged</LI>
<LI>MM AJ Merlot - fermented on Merlot pomice - barrel aged</LI>
<LI>CC Red Mountian Cab - in a barrel</LI>
<LI>CC LOVZ - in a barrel</LI>[/list]


On Order
<UL>
<LI>RJS Okanagan Valley Red Meritage</LI>[/list]

 

[smurfe]

Waldo hit the nail on the head. You really need that barrel to truly hit that mark. There are some things you can do that will come close though. These steps will void your kit warranty though and should only be used by experienced vintners who understand the process and are willing to forsake any warranty in the attempt to hit a certain mark.


Here are a few tips on what I do now. Remember though, I understand that I am voiding any warranty and assume all risks if I screw up. If you accept these risks as well and for sake of creativity want to try something different, read on.


1) Try to always use an all juice kit or fresh juice. While the concentration kits are good IMHO the pasteurization process takes something from the juice. If using an all juice source, check the acidity and pH and adjust as needed. You may think they are all pre-adjusted but that is not always the fact. Check it before you proceed.


2) Consider alternative yeasts such as the liquid yeasts available. Yes, the one with the kit may be the one you need. Try to find out what strain is specific for the type of wine you desire to create. If using dry yeast, make a starter to reduce lag time and get a healthy and strong fermentation going.


3) Throw out the oak chips or sawdust that comes with a kit and use cubes or spirals. I have found that the chips and even more the sawdust gives an astringent to harsh oak essence to the wine. Yes, they do the job much faster and if you are planning on drinking this wine in less than a couple years, use the chips. If you want a more smooth and balanced oak level though, consider the cubes or spirals. They are excellent products and will come closer to a barrel than the supplied oak products. Consider a barrel if you can afford it but remember, the smaller the barrel, the easier it is to over oak a wine, particularly if it is a new barrel. Remember as well that if you oak the way I do in the secondary during bulk aging, you can over oak as well with the cubes or spirals.


This is some of the thing I have tried that I have found help develop kit wines more toward the commercial quality. As I said, I take full responsibility for what I do so please do not consider this an endorsement and I still believe until you have quite a few kits under your belt you should always follow the directions to the "T"


Also remember that you are going to have to invest close to 3 years in these kits to reach a comparable level. You will make a fine wine faster though and don't feel you would need to try any of this. I think many of the kit wines that score well or beat fresh juice wines at the competitions have been made using alternative methods such as I have suggested.


Just something to think about.

 

[JimCook]

I've been at this hobby for about 2 years (seriously fora year) and want to make the best wine I can (fresh or kit). My first batch is closing in on 2 years (a WE Lodi OVZ) and has improved significantly over just the past 8 months but is still not comparable to $10 Ravenswood Lodi OVZ.


I have roughly 250 bottles of commercial wine ranging anywhere from $8 to $150, average is $35 +/-, half I'm holding for long term cellaring. I also have about 250 bottlesor so I've made from kits, all high end (including 3 Meglioli's) and several others bulk aging.

You and I have very similar wine collections then, at least from quantities and price points. I will say that thusfar, I have no reason not to purchase commercial wine, but I will also readily admit that I have yet to tap the full potential of making my own wine. There are options like the frozen must buckets from Brehm's as a next logical step past kit form wine, but with all of these I suppose the real comparison is the home process versus the commercial process.


Like smurfe noted in regards to the barrel difference, a single kit would fall into a 5-gallon barrel class, and that will not give the same results as a 60-gallon barrel which most commercial wineries use. Have you noticed a difference with your barrel-aged wines?


Also, the wineries will very commonly blend their wines, if not with other varietals than from different parts of a vineyard to produce a better quality wine - most of the time a home winemaker just makes the kit and bottles it as is. On the subject of base fruit quality, I'm going to be that the Stag's Leap Merlot that WE makes is not exactly sourced from the 'best of the best' sections of vineyards from that appelation.


I am very much with you - I look forward to attempting to make better and better quality wine, but I try to remind myself that my cost per bottle is generally less than $9/bottle. For me, if my homemade wine can be used as 'table wine' around the house, I think I'm good with that. I won't stop buying/collecting wine and continue to go to commercial tastings as well.


- Jim

 

[TankCa]

I suppose the real comparison is the home process versus the commercial process.


I agree and have been reading everything I can and even visiting commercial wineries in the area to learn more. I live in the Sierra Foothills and there are a dozen wineries within a 10 mile radius of my home and they are really helpful.


Have you noticed a difference with your barrel-aged wines?


There does seem to be a difference but my barrels are just now broken in to the point where I can start aging for longer periods. The first few batches were in and out quickly to avoid over oaking. They can now be barrel aged for months rather than weeks.


Also, the wineries will very commonly blend their wines, if not with other varietals than from different parts of a vineyard to produce a better quality wine


I'm starting to do that. In fact, I just blended 2 gallons of WE Sonoma Cab with 1 gal of MM AJmerlot and it tastes pretty good. I noticed you had an MM AJ CabFranc going. Too bad they don't have that any more, I'd like to have some for blendingbut can't find one that looks good to me.


I am very much with you - I look forward to attempting to make better and better quality wine, but I try to remind myself that my cost per bottle is generally less than $9/bottle. For me, if my homemade wine can be used as 'table wine' around the house, I think I'm good with that. I won't stop buying/collecting wine and continue to go to commercial tastings as well.


I'm right with you. Are you going to the WineMakers Conference in May? I'll be there and am really looking forward to it.