topping off

[sampvt]

I keep seeing this terminology. I know it means reducing the air in the demijohn or carboy by adding stuff, but why. I am guessing that the air in the head of the vessel can oxidise the wine, but why add other liquids when cheaply bought pebbles from a garden centre which have been washed and sterilised is a better idea than corrupting the brew with another liquid agent.

The pebbles also help when racking or bottling as they allow the sediment to settle beneath the level of the top of the pebbles.

 

[DoctorCAD]

1. Some people suggest marbles as a filler, but look at the math. Volume of a 1/2" diameter marble = 4/3 Pi r^3 = .067 cubic inches per marble. 1 gallon of liquid = 231 cubic inches. so it would take 3448 marbles to take up the space of 1 gallon of liquid. Thats a lot of marbles, even if you only needed one bottle of wine to top up, that would be 1/5 of 3448 = nearly 700 marbles!

2. I'd rather "corrupt" my wine with a known agent (purchased wine) than an unknown agent (rocks).

 

[GaDawg]

Aren't rocks porous?

 

[wineforfun]

I keep seeing this terminology. I know it means reducing the air in the demijohn or carboy by adding stuff, but why. I am guessing that the air in the head of the vessel can oxidise the wine, but why add other liquids when cheaply bought pebbles from a garden centre which have been washed and sterilised is a better idea than corrupting the brew with another liquid agent.

The pebbles also help when racking or bottling as they allow the sediment to settle beneath the level of the top of the pebbles.

The way I take care of this issue now, is too make extra in the beginning. I will make sure whether it is a 1 gal., 3 gal. or 6 gal. primary I am working with, to add enough extra so I have 1 or 2 750ml bottles left from the primary when racking to the secondary. Even after subsequent rackings, the 750's then turn to 375's, etc. That way I have plenty of "like" wine to top up with.
If I happen to have a "like" wine already bottled, I can use that in an emergency.

 

[heatherd]

You will find lots of opinions on this, and nearly all are technically sound.

A non-porous glass bead can be used, also marbles. The only concerns would be making sure they are sanitized and do not contain anything harmful in their make-up like mercury.

You can also rack down to a smaller carboy. So go from 6g to 5g, and put aside any extra for topping off later.

Or you can top off with a similar wine, whether homemade or commercial.

I will typically do the last one for a few reasons: I want to yield as close to 30 bottles as possible; I don't have a 5g carboy; I don't mind adding additional wine of the same varietal, and don't expect that will alter the flavor profile substantially.

So the answer depends on your goals.

Heather

 

[joeswine]

Racking?????????

HERES THE CHOICES, starting with you have 6 gallons in a open fermenter to rack down to a 6 gallon carboy it should all fit, let it settle out for a week of two with a air lock, add a inert gas such as argon or nitrogen to top it off with.

other choice that also makes sense, take it from where it's volume is and transfer to a 5 add inert gas, any balance you can figure out what to do. just a thought...........................

 

[vacuumpumpman]

You will find lots of opinions on this, and nearly all are technically sound.

A non-porous glass bead can be used, also marbles. The only concerns would be making sure they are sanitized and do not contain anything harmful in their make-up like mercury.

You can also rack down to a smaller carboy. So go from 6g to 5g, and put aside any extra for topping off later.

Or you can top off with a similar wine, whether homemade or commercial.

I will typically do the last one for a few reasons: I want to yield as close to 30 bottles as possible; I don't have a 5g carboy; I don't mind adding additional wine of the same varietal, and don't expect that will alter the flavor profile substantially.

So the answer depends on your goals.

Heather

I have been in the works to announce that I have made a system that can pull a vacuum in your carboy and hold it for a period of 3 months. What that means if you replace any air volume with any gas that is heavier than air - say argon or CO2 and then put a vacuum on that vessel and it will sustain at that level if not close to it. You should not have any issues at all !! Even without any any Co2 you should be fine, as there will be very little O2 to contact your wine,because of the vacuum created .

 

[Boatboy24]

I have been in the works to announce that I have made a system that can pull a vacuum in your carboy and hold it for a period of 3 months. What that means if you replace any air volume with any gas that is heavier than air - say argon or CO2 and then put a vacuum on that vessel and it will sustain at that level if not close to it. You should not have any issues at all !! Even without any any Co2 you should be fine, as there will be very little O2 to contact your wine,because of the vacuum created .

I'm all ears!

 

[vacuumpumpman]

Once I have taken a video of the process and upload it to my website - I will make sure you know about it.

I also have 1 more new product up my sleeve and that will be coming out at that same time !

 

[Floandgary]

As long as we are on the topic of volumes and displacements, has anyone ever thought to view things backwards? After bottling, each bottle has a small volume of (airspace?),, let's guess @1-2 cu.in. Times @30 (bottles/typical batch) and you might be alarmed at the airspace to which your wine would be exposed. Given most all wines, home and commercial, are intended for consumption rather than long term aging, the effects of exposure to airspace may not be all that critical . Following the basic guidelines for our hobby will, and has, insured satisfactory results. Guess my point on this topic is that reasonable effort with vessel selection will suffice. Not to pooh-hoo the extra efforts of vacuuming and inert gassing, just saying that isn't an option open to most. By-the-by, I don't recall reading many comments of spoilage due to oxidation. JMHO thank you!

 

[DoctorCAD]

As long as we are on the topic of volumes and displacements, has anyone ever thought to view things backwards? After bottling, each bottle has a small volume of (airspace?),, let's guess @1-2 cu.in. Times @30 (bottles/typical batch) and you might be alarmed at the airspace to which your wine would be exposed. Given most all wines, home and commercial, are intended for consumption rather than long term aging, the effects of exposure to airspace may not be all that critical . Following the basic guidelines for our hobby will, and has, insured satisfactory results. Guess my point on this topic is that reasonable effort with vessel selection will suffice. Not to pooh-hoo the extra efforts of vacuuming and inert gassing, just saying that isn't an option open to most. By-the-by, I don't recall reading many comments of spoilage due to oxidation. JMHO thank you!

It isn't volume of air that causes the problem, its the surface area of wine-to-air that is. The surface area of wine-to-air in a 6 gallon carboy or bucket is pretty large, in a bottle...not so much.

 

[Floandgary]

I stand corrected. Got stuck on a different observation based on a 6 gal carboy I have which, when filled from a 6 gal juice bucket, results in @6" dia. exposed surface vs. the @11" dia. of the carboy. However I do believe that proper vessel selection is the simplest approach resulting in acceptable exposed surface area. Now if only all manufacturers made them the same!!!

 

[sour_grapes]

It isn't volume of air that causes the problem, its the surface area of wine-to-air that is. The surface area of wine-to-air in a 6 gallon carboy or bucket is pretty large, in a bottle...not so much.

I respectfully disagree it is as simple as this. If oxidation were influenced principally by the surface area exposed, then it would matter whether you stored your bottles of wine upright or on their sides.

I think we need to distinguish first between closed systems and open systems. Clearly, the volume is important in a closed system. Given enough time, essentially all of the oxygen in the enclosed volume will react with the wine.

The exposed area must have a significant influence on the rate of this reaction. Large areas will allow more reaction per unit time. If the volume is fixed, the time over which this reaction will occur is unimportant. However, if more oxygen may be supplied (as in a bucket or open carboy), then the surface area and the time exposed become important.

 

[Floandgary]

So getting back to the topic of topping off. Presumably we're referencing the step of transferring to the secondary and utilizing an air-lock. The fact that carboys of a specified volume do not all fill to the same level leaves us with varying volumes/surface area of air to interact with our wines. The goal of topping up is to reduce the amount of possible interaction. Therefore proper selection of vessels is the simplest method of providing limited airspace. My thought is that even after our best efforts, we still bottle with a measured amount of oxygen which is of no consequence. If you use more than a bottle (750ml) of liquid to top-up, then you might want to consider a smaller vessel. I rarely have levels more than shown in Joes pictures versus topping to within an inch or two of the lip.

 

[sampvt]

Once I have taken a video of the process and upload it to my website - I will make sure you know about it.

I also have 1 more new product up my sleeve and that will be coming out at that same time !

Please keep me advised. I might be a newbee, but I am all about gadgets and mans toys, lol.

 

[codeman]

Does head space even matter if you're able to keep so2 levels high? (Say 60 ppm)

 

[wineforfun]

Proper selection of vessels definitely helps with this issue, although for me, I don't want to rack from a 6gal. to a 5gal. or a 3gal. to 2-1gal. carboys. I want the full amount of wine I initially started with. This is why I start with a little extra in the primary, ie: 1 1/4gal. for 1gal. batch, 3 1/2-2/3gal. for 3gal. batch, etc. This way I have plenty for topping up along the way with each racking.
The only time this is any issue for me is if I do a kit, then I usually have to top up with a like wine.
While the addition of gases, etc. is nice, it is not an option for most of us or should I say very practical.

 

[sour_grapes]

I agree with DJ. The simplest solution for me is to top off with a like wine.

I have rationalized this as follows: I have this bottle of commercial wine. I can either drink it now, or I can pour it into that carboy and drink it in 18 mos. I don't care so much about not being able to drink that bottle soon, so it does not bother me to pour it into the carboy.

 

[joeswine]

MY THOUGHTS,TAKING IT FROM THE TOP IF YOU HAVE 6 GALLONS IN GLASS TO START WITH ,AFTER PRIMARY YOU SHOULD HAVE LESS TO SOME EXTENT.VERY rarely do I HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT,THE FIRST RACKING THERE FORE IS BACK TO A 6, REGARDLESS OF THE SPACE ,LET IT SET ONE OR TWO WEEKS WITH POSITIVE PRESSURE INSIDE. THEN RACK DOWN TO MINIMIZE OXYGEN CONTACT IF ANY.
USING,A COMMERCIAL WINE TO TOP OFF WITH REALLY DOESN'T MAKE SENSE FOR ME,YOUR NOT GOING TO ACHIEVE THE SAME FLAVORS OR ANY OF THE OTHER NUANCES,IN MOST CASES COMMERCIAL WINES TAKE ON A WHOLE DIFFERENT PROFILE AS OPPOSED TO WHAT WERE MAKING (OF THE SAME TYPE),THAT'SA WASTE OF MONEY.RACKING DOWN ,TOPPING OFF WITH A INERT GAS ANY OF THESE AVENUES MAKES SENSE FOR THE HOME WINE MAKER AND IS EFFECTIVE. MOST PRO WINERIES HAVE DIAPHRAGM VATS PRESSURIZED TO ACHIEVE THAT END.JUST MY THOUGHTS NOT ETCHED IN STONE.

 

[sour_grapes]

USING,A COMMERCIAL WINE TO TOP OFF WITH REALLY DOESN'T MAKE SENSE FOR ME,YOUR NOT GOING TO ACHIEVE THE SAME FLAVORS OR ANY OF THE OTHER NUANCES,IN MOST CASES COMMERCIAL WINES TAKE ON A WHOLE DIFFERENT PROFILE AS OPPOSED TO WHAT WERE MAKING (OF THE SAME TYPE),T

I am not arguing with you, Joe, as I realize you are presenting your opinion. I would like to add a couple of thoughts to others considering this issue.

If you have to add 1 L of wine to your carboy, that is about a 4% dilution. Out of a 4 oz., glass, that is almost exactly a teaspoon of the other wine. I suggest trying this experiment. Have a friend fill two glasses of wine. Then, have him or her add 1 tsp of a different (like) wine to one glass, and 1 tsp of the original wine to the other (on the off chance you can spot volumes down to a tsp). Then see if you can tell which is which.