Training Petit Manseng

[dwhill40]

Greetings,

Anyone here growing Petit Manseng? I've yet to figure out what these vines are trying to accomplish as far as a growth pattern is concerned. I have own rooted and I've grafted on 110R root stock growing in two different blocks which seems to make no difference except in vigor. The shoots, as compared the average vinifera, seem to prefer to grow down or sideways or up. The distance between buds is short. After making my best effort at spacing shoots over a couple of years I still have some shoots tiny and some bolting. A very odd out of balance vine in my opinion. Should I try growing as an American grape and let it drape and prune as I would a concord or muscadine? Any help on this would be appreciated.

 

[TOMMARIANI22]

Where are you located

 

[dwhill40]

North Alabama. Please no advice on growing vinifera here. I have elevation on sandy soil and grow killer Cab. as well as many other vinifera varieties.

 

[TOMMARIANI22]

I was just curious to know you're weather pattern and if you have a good how long summer. We grow it on a lyre trellis system to help it stay vertical. It really doesn't have a preference,but if you do let it drape it is extremely prone to rot if it doesn't get the sun it needs.

 

[dwhill40]

Thanks for the reply. Probably not many manseng growers around. I'm growing it on a vsp trellis in full sun. My growing season is too long with most varieties ripening in August. The vegatation seems ample. It just seems to have a wonky growth habit. Could be the clone I have maybe? I dont use commercial fertilize so maybe it needs more nutrition than I'm giving it? The reds grow like kudzu in the sandy soil so I focus on keeping the micchorrizae happy and I apply a little composted cow manure for nitrogen every other year. I'm not against applying a little 13-13-13 to the PM see what happens.

 

[TOMMARIANI22]

We grow it for it's thick skins and loose clusters better for disease management. Do the shoots tend to be kind of short and long periodically? We had the same problem and then switched to a cane pruning method and it corrected almost everything. The variety tends to build cankers in old wood and blocks nutrient uptake to certain parts of the vineyard giving it a wonky look, but by renewing the cordons every year we were able to remove decaying or dead parts of the vine and bring it back into balance. We have really fertile soil as well so take the word balance with a grain of salt. Because when you get it just right these things can have a canopy big enough to make it like night.

 

[dwhill40]

Ah yes, a most awesome solution indeed. That is it! The same staggered growth restriction sort of thing going on but yet an otherwise healthy plant. I even lost a two yr old grafted PM vine to some gallish looking condition. I have lost very few vines over my six year experiment. (I only have a little over 100 vines with 15 + varieties). I've taught myself almost every discipline in grape growing and winemaking except for cane pruning. A little google and youtube will solve that issue. Thank you. Where are you located?

 

[TOMMARIANI22]

Absolutely. There is a product they make called vitiseal and it is a wound protectant. If you apply a mild fungicide like oxidate to clean the wound and then apply vitiseal immediately after you will never worry about cankers or dead arm. Cane pruning has been our best friend in renewal zones. We are on a 34 acre estate vineyard in Pennsylvania. You have it easy with 100 vines good for you. Little more work with cane pruning but it pays itself back.

 

[TOMMARIANI22]

If you need a help with anything I can post some pictures and guide you a little bit.

 

[dwhill40]

Very cool. Wow, that's a lot of vines to manage. My old Pappy has a cattle farm near Huntsville where I have acreage to play with. Might pull the trigger someday on a couple of acres of grapes/blackberries/elderberries to sell the fruit for vacation money in my retirement and keep me moving. I'm submitting my 2017 Cab in a few contests to maybe get a little recognition. Ive had a couple of professionals tell me it's good. We shall see.

I have shaved off large galls, applied antiboitic ointment then wrapped with a strip of cotton cloth. It works for me. A farmer in north georgia with acreage told me he uses a steel brush and diesel fuel to treat gall. Guess it's cost effective.

I've got about a dozen PM vines mature enough to convert over to cane pruning without to much setback. I'm looking forward to it. I need a white that works in the humidity. Reisling grows well and matures well but the least blemish on a grape and it's done. Chardonnay is a little better rot wise. Valvin Muscat may pass muster, the flavor is unreal but not really a vibrant vine.

Do you guys grow Tannat? I have never seen a vine so happy as Tannat is in my environment. Even with me dropping fruit and letting it grow to 12 ft and VSP I probably get 40 lbs or more of grapes with shoots touching the ground if I let them and that is on 80 yr old washed out cow pasture with sandy acidic soil. I planted a row last year after seeing what my prototype vine would do. It blends perfect with Cab for a strong nasty red.

Thanks again!

 

[TOMMARIANI22]

Funny that you ask if we grow Tannat. We were into exploring new varietals... This year we had over 78 inches of rain. The only true grapes that we had stand up to it were loose cluster thick skinned varietals. Fortunately our cab franc and semillon did great with an intense IPM program. So if you're in the market for white vinefra varietals I would tell you semillon all the way... great blending partner with petit manseng as well and has very good resistance to disease. We are doing our own grafting this year and will be adding Tannat and more semillon to our acreage. We are hoping Tannat will love this area and really thrive for our conditions. Hopefully we are a bit drier next year... average is 35 inches per year. We've also been experimenting with early leaf removal to loosen clusters before Bloom and it has cut our disease pressure in half.

 

[dwhill40]

Yeah, I spent last year remodeling a house every weekend, a new job and the wife had back surgery. Add in the Gulf of Mexico streaming overhead for the year and late with the bird netting and there was no 2018 vintage.

I'll have to add a couple of semillon vines in with my cab franc order this year. Planning on a small row. I hear cab franc has a good record in humidity. Looser clusters is the trick. I have a kickin' Zin vine but the green clusters are like hand grenades.

Leaf removal before bloom for looser clusters. That's a new one on me. I brutalize the vines with shoot and leaf thinning throughout the year. Do you pull leaves from around the blooms or the fruiting zone in general?
I included a pic of the crazy tannat vine and my fine leaf pulling on a row of cab

 

[dwhill40]

Btw, I've grafted a few vines and learned some varieties like some rootstocks better than others. The petit manseng grafted to 110R like a champ. Not a single tannat t-graft to 110R took. Tannat is different. The vine is more wooden and straight than other varieties. A guy that likes to breed grapes once told me something about the lineage of tannat being different. I've found novavine is decent at answering those sort of matching scion to rootstock questions.

 

[TOMMARIANI22]

Ahhh very good advice I'll have to reach out... Fruit looks really good for that year. There really is quite nothing like the daunting tasks of the Vineyard. It certainly as it seems.. a labor of love with a possible pending doom without a moments notice. Did you top graft or were you bench grafting those Tannat? We are bench grafting everything on to 101-14. Almost all of our vineyard is on 3309 or 101-14.

 

[TOMMARIANI22]

We pull this first 5-6 leafs bottom up before trace Bloom. It tricks the plant into thinking that it has sustained an injury and in return drops blossoms in order to be able to ripen fruit. It compensates for the lack of photosynthesis thus reduces fruit compaction and allows better spray coverage.

 

[TOMMARIANI22]

And yes we always remove leaves from the fruit zone for better sun and air movement.

 

[dwhill40]

I will definitely give the early leaf pulling a shot. Thanks for the info. The tight clusters are probably the deciding varietal viability factor for my environment. I usually drop about 30% to 40% of my clusters anyway so any lost fruit production could end up being a welcome outcome.

I looked up my Tannat order from 2017 and they are grafted on 101-14 and they grew aggressively last year. I even left a cluster on a vine or two.

The rootstock I used for grafting is 110R. I found a chart that said it handles drought and acid soil best and it does. I'm experimenting with a dry grow block and my subsoil PH tested at 4.9. It is beyond aggressive, maybe too much so. I planted the 110R, let it grow a season, lopped off all but a foot of trunk then T-bud grafted. The success rate of the PM and Zin was good considering it was my first attempt. The Tannat failed. I had to get on the ground to perform the graft, bench grafting is probably much more efficient for quantity. Thanks again.

 

[TOMMARIANI22]

Surely we all have to pass on knowledge. This wine bug bites like a sun of a bitch and you never wanna stop gaining information. Post some pictures this coming season I'd like to know your results. Good luck.

 

[dwhill40]

Cane pruning worked like a champ for evening out the growth on Petit manseng.