Under stair cellar progress

[Americana]

Well, I dove on in this wknd and got the demo work done. I'll only have 3.5" in walls and slightly more in ceiling in which to put insulation, but that was pretty much expected. It's an interior room directly above the crawl space.

I'm thinking with the limited space for insulation, I'll spring for polyiso foam board, which allegedly has an R-vale of around 6-9 per inch. Anyone have any experience with it's ability to insulate?

As for the floor... well, this is where it gets a bit tricky. Initially I wasn't even going to insulate it at all, since it's above a crawlspace that remains relatively cool year-round, and it would require a tremendous amount of demo and re-building work. I've decided however to sacrifice 1.5" of vertical cellar space (which pains me since it's already such a small area!!) to lay a few 2x1 strips over the vapor barrier on the floor and inset 3/4" foam board insulation. I'll put plywood over that and then some sort of (very very thin!) flooring.

Anyone have thoughts on how crucial insulating the floor is, relative to the rest of the process?

 

[roblloyd]

This is very interesting project with a small space. Keep posting your progress!

 

[DirtyDawg10]

Polyiso will give you the best R value per inch but you could probably get away with using extruded polystyrene. How do you plan to cool the space? You could probably get away with not touching the floor if it is concrete. If it is wood construction you could insulate it from below.

 

[ffemt128]

I have a similar area under my basement steps that I considered building a rack/storage area under. I do have an area about 3 feet wide before my sloped area starts. I really need to get on this project. I was planning on drywalling the area.

 

[Americana]

Polyiso will give you the best R value per inch but you could probably get away with using extruded polystyrene. How do you plan to cool the space? You could probably get away with not touching the floor if it is concrete. If it is wood construction you could insulate it from below.

I'm going to use a CellarPro 1800 XT: http://www.cellarprocoolingsystems.com/purchase-wine-cooling-unit/1800-wine-cooling-unit/1800XT

The floor is wood. I initially thought like you suggested--get into crawlspace and insulate from below, but that would make it impossible to get a fully wrapped vapor barrier around the room.

 

[Americana]

I have a similar area under my basement steps that I considered building a rack/storage area under. I do have an area about 3 feet wide before my sloped area starts. I really need to get on this project. I was planning on drywalling the area.

I would kill to have a 3' level area in my tiny space. Unfortunately as the project goes on, the space gets smaller and smaller. Let me know what you end up doing, I'll be interested to hear since we're in similar situations.

 

[Wade E]

I have an idea for you so as to be able to store more in that cramped space. I havent built cabinets in awhile but I know back then they made some very heavy duty drawer slides! I think I remember them being 30" deep also so if you cab build them so when you look in to the side and see the whole side of the bottle and then slide the drawer out to you youd probably not lose too much depth that way without having to crawl way in. Obviously the bottom rack would need longer drawer slides and the top ones would get shorter as they go up.

 

[Runningwolf]

Awesome project. I look forward to seeing the progress.

 

[DirtyDawg10]

I like that cooling unit. Very Nice! I would say you probably don't need a full vapor barrier being that this is an interior space with the exception of the floor. The unit also has a humidity control which should control that anyway. I look forward to seeing the final outcome.

 

[ibglowin]

Nice cooling unit for sure! That will do nicely.

 

[Americana]

I like that cooling unit. Very Nice! I would say you probably don't need a full vapor barrier being that this is an interior space with the exception of the floor. The unit also has a humidity control which should control that anyway. I look forward to seeing the final outcome.

You think so? I'd love to not have to deal with figuring out the floor barrier issue. You don't think that may create moisture problems somewhere in the cellar walls? I've read so much about the importance of vapor barriers and how if you don't have a complete one the insulation will get soaked, walls will mold, your wine will turn to stone and aliens will come to your house and eat your pets.

 

[Americana]

I have an idea for you so as to be able to stotre more in that cramped space. I havent built cabinets in awhile but I know back then they made some very heavy duty drawer slides! I thgink I remember them being 30" deep also so if you cab build them so when you look in to the side and see the whole side of the bottle and then slide the drawer out to you youd probably not lose too much depth that way without having to crawl wy in. Obviously the bottom rack would need longer drawer slides and the top ones would get shorter as they go up.

Wade that sounds spectacular and is a very good idea to maximize the space. Unfortunately that sort of setup is far out of my skill range... At this point I'm just congratulating myself that the staircase still stands after i completed demo work. I may revisit your idea down the road though. Thanks!

 

[Wade E]

Dont underestimate yourself. Its as easy as cuting a piece of wood (spacer to slip under tyhe drawer slide to have them even and screwin g 2 screws in and then measuring in between, making a few cuts which your going to have to do anyway and mounting the other side of the slide to that and then putting all the screws in.

 

[DirtyDawg10]

You think so? I'd love to not have to deal with figuring out the floor barrier issue. You don't think that may create moisture problems somewhere in the cellar walls? I've read so much about the importance of vapor barriers and how if you don't have a complete one the insulation will get soaked, walls will mold, your wine will turn to stone and aliens will come to your house and eat your pets.

lol...If these were basement exterior walls I would say yes put the vapor barrier. However these are interior walls and it is not needed IMO. You may still want a vapor barrier at the floor since it is an "exterior" surface.

The issue will not come from the wine storage area. The issue will be the warm humid air outside condensing on a cold surface. This is sometimes an issue in basements because the air is humid and the exterior concrete foundation walls are cold and the water vapor in the air condenses on them. If you put the vapor barrier in the wrong place you can trap the vapor and that causes mold to form.

Unless you plan to keep this area refrigerated I would not worry about it. If you do run across an issue in the future, a residential de-humidifier for the basement would solve the issue. Then again you probably should have a dehumidifier in the basement anyway

 

[Americana]

Unless you plan to keep this area refrigerated I would not worry about it.

It will indeed be cooled w/ a through-the-wall unit. I'm just going to lay down the VB over the existing plywood floor, place a few 2x1s on top of it (so the foam board isn't crushed), lay 3/4" foam board between the 2x1s, put my flooring over that and pray for the best.

 

[DirtyDawg10]

That should work fine. By refrigerated I meant keeping it down around 40 to 50 degrees. I'm guessing that's not the case.

 

[Americana]

Well with the demo finished, I've started completing framing where necessary. Also after much waffling I decided I would play it safe and have a dedicated circuit for the cooling unit. This required running the electrical line to a circuit panel in the back of the house... which was NOT fun. Had to wiggle my way through about 30 ft of dark, dank 18-inch high crawlspace (claustrophobia anyone?). I felt like Andy Dufrene going through the sewer pipe in "Shawshank Redemption." I was in areas under that house which I'm pretty sure have been untouched by human eyes since WWI.

Anywho, with the wiring in place I am now about to put up the vapor barrier, then I'll insulate w/ foam board. I cannot however find any doggone place that carries polyiso board. I checked Lowe's and Home Depot, but they only have regular foam board (R-value of only 3 per inch), whereas polyiso board has twice that. This is crucial for my purposes b/c I only have about 3" of insulation space in the walls and ceiling and need to get the most out of it.

Anyone have any idea where I might find some polyiso board like Tuff-R or Thermax?

 

[DirtyDawg10]

It's more of a commercial insulation product used a lot in roofing. Not sure if there are any commercial roofing contractors around you but they may be willing to sell you some. You could also call the manufacturer and find out where it is sold near you.

 

[Americana]

Well, things are moving along "with all deliberate speed..." However I suspect now that there's a large hole in the hallway, I will receive plenty of domestic encouragement to get this completed sooner rather than later.

The room is now sealed off w/ 2x4s and Great Stuff, and the cooling unit is on the way. Now I'm going to get started putting up the vapor barrier. I expect this step will be accompanied by more four-letter words, given the irritating angles I've got to work with.

The temps down here are already creeping into the 80s, so I can't get my stash in there and cooled down fast enough!

 

[brothermoo]

I have a small space under my first 5 steps that i have utilised... Broke up a pallet and built a wee rack that should hold 33 bottles. Not lots but using the space i have! Only thing is it needs a rub with sandpaper as the pallet wood is knobbly in some places, making it tight for certain bottles.