Used bourbon barrel - update and question

[JBP]

Building on an older thread with a new question: I started my barrel journey with a smaller format, fresh dump bourbon barrel (~6+ gal), having several wines aging in carboys and ready to rotate through. Ultimately, I put three wines through in the past year, each wine was only in the barrel for ~4 months before developing some level of bourbon taste. At this time, I have one very nice "bourbon barrel red blend" bottled and two more "sigh, bourbon essence, again?" outcomes. Tiring of wines quickly developing the same ambience, I recently emptied the barrel and filled with a holding solution (k-meta and citric acid). While I hold out hope that the 'sameness' of the barrel reds will mellow and change over time, I am hesitant to put anything else in the barrel until I am more confident it truly neutral (bourbon as well as oak).

Thoughts on how long to leave the holding solution in place before trying again? My alternate option is to buy a second barrel (new, not fresh-dumped) and focus on moving wine through the new oak (eventually bringing the fresh dump back on-line over time).

 

[Rice_Guy]

Option three, bench trial a carmel flavor extract at about one to three ml per 6 gallons. This will build missing oak notes. or two ml of vanilla extract.

 

[winemaker81]

Beth (@VinesnBines) has recent experience with bourbon and other barrels. She may be able to offer insight, although IIRC all her barrels are large (10-16 US gallons).

What kind of wine are you running through the barrel? Lighter reds will exhibit more bourbon flavor than lighter ones. For now, heavier reds will mask the excess bourbon flavor.

Part of your problem is barrel size. Smaller barrels have a much higher interior surface area to volume ratio, so the wine extracts more from the wood.

How much did the bourbon character reduce from the first to second, and second to third batches? That may help you figure out a timeline for the holding solution.

Moving to a new barrel gives you a larger problem -- small format new barrels may be able to hold a batch for only 4 to 8 weeks for the first few batches due to the amount of oak character leaching from the wood. You'll be cycling wine through the barrel faster. It takes about 3 years for a barrel to turn neutral.

I'm not trying to discourage you, just point out that while barrels provide great value, they present new winemaking challenges.

Another thought -- blend the barrel wine with non-barrel wine to reduce the bourbon character. I'd do bench testing to ensure you're actually fixing the problem, not producing 12 gallons of a wine you don't want instead of 6.

 

[JTS84]

One of my barrels is a used whiskey barrel. What I ended doing was making second run wines to keep it full. I also asked a question about making a barrel neutral on here with chemicals that was answered a couple years ago. A quick search should bring that up.

 

[VinesnBines]

Bryan pretty much summed up my thoughts. I have two 10 and two 15 gallon ex whisky barrels. I left the first fills in the barrels at least 8 months and one for 11 months. Now in a second fill, I’m not getting much if any whisky flavor.

You may notice the bourbon flavor fade as it ages. So far everyone has raved about my wines and they are freshly bottled. I’m pleased with the whisky flavors but expect the second and later fills to have less and less bourbon essence.

Edited the sentence about barrel size.

 

[Christopher Anderson]

Bryan pretty much summed up my thoughts. I haven’t taken anything two 10 and two 15 gallon ex whisky barrels. I left the first fills in the barrels at least 8 months and one for 11 months. Now in a second fill, I’m not getting much if any whisky flavor.

You may notice the bourbon flavor fade as it ages. So far everyone has raved about my wines and they are freshly bottled. I’m pleased with the whisky flavors but expect the second and later fills to have less and less bourbon essence.

Why not soak oak cubes in bourbon if you want that flavor? Or just pour a shot?

 

[winemaker81]

Why not soak oak cubes in bourbon if you want that flavor? Or just pour a shot?

Two reasons, completely different.

First is chemistry. Oak adjuncts add oak flavoring and aroma, but cannot duplicate the concentration effect of evaporation from a barrel.

Second is financial. Used barrels are WAY cheaper than new.

My barrels are neutral, and I add oak cubes for flavoring. Time in barrel is not a concern as they are neutral, and the amount and type of adjuncts is measured.

 

[JBP]

Thanks so much for the quick responses (as always with this group!). I planned ahead for my start into the world of barrels as I assumed I would buy new and needed lots of things to put through it to move to neutral. As Bryan noted, I chose the fresh-dump barrel because the price was right. I put a syrah, Baby Super Tuscan and a zinfandel through the barrel - no disasters as I have blended/tweaked the first two to success before bottling (both very good and different, but both "bourbon barrel reds" . The Zin is back in a carboy and while I am confident I can tweak it successfully, it definitely still have a bourbon essence and I had to pull it out of the barrel before experiencing the other benefits of time in a barrel. Like the idea of caramel or vanilla flavor and will likely try that with a gallon. And I think time will also help.

In the meantime, I did find the earlier threads and hope I can get this one fully neutral so I can rely on it for longer time and more micro-oxygenation. And I will continue to consider a new (perhaps larger) barrel as a second one - well aware of the commitment required the first few years.

 

[VinesnBines]

Two reasons, completely different.

First is chemistry. Oak adjuncts add oak flavoring and aroma, but cannot duplicate the concentration effect of evaporation from a barrel.

Second is financial. Used barrels are WAY cheaper than new.

My barrels are neutral, and I add oak cubes for flavoring. Time in barrel is not a concern as they are neutral, and the amount and type of adjuncts is measured.

Like Bryan pointed out, I wanted to try barrels and the used whisky or bourbon barrels were much less expensive than new. I’m using them for heavy reds so the bourbon flavor has been of value. Truthfully after several months, the bourbon fades. I’ve been happy with my barrels but each one is a new challenge and different character.

 

[Garagista]

Bryan pretty much summed up my thoughts. I have two 10 and two 15 gallon ex whisky barrels. I left the first fills in the barrels at least 8 months and one for 11 months. Now in a second fill, I’m not getting much if any whisky flavor.

You may notice the bourbon flavor fade as it ages. So far everyone has raved about my wines and they are freshly bottled. I’m pleased with the whisky flavors but expect the second and later fills to have less and less bourbon essence.

Edited the sentence about barrel size.

I am now aging this years harvest in 15 gallon whiskey barrels that I disassembled and recooped. I have absolutely no idea if this will act like a new barrel, act like a neutral barrel with whiskey taste or something in between. The fun will be in the discovery.

 

[winemaker81]

I am now aging this years harvest in 15 gallon whiskey barrels that I disassembled and recooped. I have absolutely no idea if this will act like a new barrel, act like a neutral barrel with whiskey taste or something in between. The fun will be in the discovery.

If you shaved the interior, I suspect it will act more like a new barrel.

 

[Garagista]

If you shaved the interior, I suspect it will act more like a new barrel.

Thank you. I suspect you are right so I am going to pull the wine from the barrels at week 15. I may have too much oak, too much whiskey or both!

 

[winemaker81]

Thank you. I suspect you are right so I am going to pull the wine from the barrels at week 15. I may have too much oak, too much whiskey or both!

If the oak is too strong, blend it with unoaked wine.

My first year with a barrel, for reasons unremembered I racked it at 3 months. The wine had spend that time with 6 oz medium toast oak cubes. I drained most of the barrel into a Brute, then drained the dregs into a separate container, which I put in the fridge to clear. Refilled the barrel, sans oak.

Tasted the dregs a week later. ARGH!!! It was undrinkable. The main part had little oak character while this was like chewing on the cubes.

I was going to toss it, but rethought that decision. I used it to top the barrel. Spread out into 15 gallons, that bottle of wine was perfect. All the oak character I wanted was present, in a concentrated form.

This is what taught me (in a very practical sense) that wine has no convection currents, so the wine closest to the cubes got all the oak essence.

I developed this process:

For the first 5 months, at each topup I use a drill-mounted stirring rod to stir each barrel. This distributes the oak character, and the cubes are pretty much expended by the end of the third month, so afterward there's not a lot of change. Given that my barrels are neutral, I bottle at the 12 month mark, which gives each 7 months to settle the lees.

I assume you're carboy aging for a while after pulling from the barrel? I suggest you stir the barrel at topup, THEN taste it, so that you're getting a true reading. The wine near the wood will get the oak character, while the wine in the center -- which is where you'll get your tasting sample, won't. The oak character will be more distributed than in my situation, but I expect your wine will be uneven.

When you drain the barrel it will probably be a bit muddy, but it will settle in the carboy.

 

[Garagista]

If the oak is too strong, blend it with unoaked wine.

My first year with a barrel, for reasons unremembered I racked it at 3 months. The wine had spend that time with 6 oz medium toast oak cubes. I drained most of the barrel into a Brute, then drained the dregs into a separate container, which I put in the fridge to clear. Refilled the barrel, sans oak.

Tasted the dregs a week later. ARGH!!! It was undrinkable. The main part had little oak character while this was like chewing on the cubes.

I was going to toss it, but rethought that decision. I used it to top the barrel. Spread out into 15 gallons, that bottle of wine was perfect. All the oak character I wanted was present, in a concentrated form.

This is what taught me (in a very practical sense) that wine has no convection currents, so the wine closest to the cubes got all the oak essence.

I developed this process:

For the first 5 months, at each topup I use a drill-mounted stirring rod to stir each barrel. This distributes the oak character, and the cubes are pretty much expended by the end of the third month, so afterward there's not a lot of change. Given that my barrels are neutral, I bottle at the 12 month mark, which gives each 7 months to settle the lees.

I assume you're carboy aging for a while after pulling from the barrel? I suggest you stir the barrel at topup, THEN taste it, so that you're getting a true reading. The wine near the wood will get the oak character, while the wine in the center -- which is where you'll get your tasting sample, won't. The oak character will be more distributed than in my situation, but I expect your wine will be uneven.

When you drain the barrel it will probably be a bit muddy, but it will settle in the carboy.

This is great, thx.

 

[winemaker81]

This is great, thx.

I documented my process in more detail on my site:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/barrel-aging-process/

 

[Christopher Anderson]

Different question: If one wants the barrels to be neutral, why use barrels vs glass or plastic carboys gir the home wine maker? I understand that barrels can be stacked vs carboys.

 

[winemaker81]

Different question: If one wants the barrels to be neutral, why use barrels vs glass or plastic carboys gir the home wine maker? I understand that barrels can be stacked vs carboys.

Evaporation.

Water and alcohol evaporate through the wood, concentrating the remaining constituents. Barrel aged wines are richer than non-barrel aged wine. Mine go in barrel for 12 months, and even without adding cubes, by Month 2 there is a distinct difference between the barrel wine and the glass aged topup.

And neutrality removes the time constraint that is especially common in small format new barrels.

When you read of commercial wineries aging in new barrels for 2+ years, that's ~60+ US gallon barrels. The next common size down (30 gallons) can age wine for less time without over oaking. Also note that wineries blend barreled and non-barreled wine to get a balance. The subject is more complicated than you might think, and blending is common.

From reading a history of wine, I gather that the "wine" the Romans drank might not be recognized as wine today. Oxidation and spoilage were common, and it's not like they could go to the store to buy more.

 

[GSMChris]

I was about to write the same thing - evaporation (or micro oxidation )

Our group wine for 2022 was a Syrah. We made two barrels plus 2 15 gallon kegs for top up. We aged in neutral barrels for 18 months, bottling early this summer. In the process, during the first 9 months, we blended the keg wine into the barrels when we racked. The last nine months we didn’t rack and simply topped up from the keg. Well, we only used one keg plus about 4 gallons for top up- so an 8 and a 5 gallon keg left to bottle at the end. Those 13 gallons had missed out on the benefits of oxidation but had been exposed to the oak staves during their useful life. Before bottling we tasted both the keg wine and the bottle wine and the barrel wine was substantially better - richer with a greater depth of flavor.

We bottled separately and I designated the two wines with different capsules.

On Christmas Day, I opened one of each and we did a tasting without discussing the difference. 5 of the 6 tasters preferred the barrel wine and the other didn’t care. I also preferred the barrel wine but of course knew which was which. It led to an interesting discussion on micro oxidation and wine making .

 

[Rice_Guy]

Just a dumb questions
* Could one do the same by pulling a vacuum on a carboy for a few months? ,, evaporation
* Is there a small / cost effective ultrafiltration unit that could be used to pull water out and concentrate the wine? like RO