Vieux Chateau du Roi

[winemaker81]

In another thread I was asked about a Vieux Chateau du Roi that I have in production. Since this may (or may not) turn into a lengthy conversation, instead of threadjacking I'm starting a new thread.

I started a Winexpert Selection Vieux Chateau du Roi at the beginning of October. So far it's progressing well -- I'm going to rack it today as there is a significant sediment build up. I'm following the kit instructions (with the proviso that timelines are minimums) and expect to bottle in early December. Or maybe late December, depending on free time around the holidays.

It's a medium bodied red and based upon tastings at rackings, I will enjoy this one. I don't think it's a long ager, but I'm going to leave it alone for a year (other than quarterly tests) and will try to reserve a few bottles for longer term aging. I made it more as a "drink now" wine to give other reds a fighting chance at aging.

I recently converted my original wine making site to a new one, and when moving my logs i realized this is the third time I've made this kit. Although the three instances are not the same kit:

• 1996 WineArt (my first wine kit)
• 2011 R J Spagnols Heritage Estates
• 2018 Winexpert Selection

In reading my logs I noticed 2 things:

• Kit wines work better if I follow the instructions and don't treat them as fresh grape wines.
• Kits have improved significantly in quality since my first kit 22 years ago.

I've also noticed that I don't like the R J Spagnols kits as much, excepting their dessert wines. My local shop has some kits on clearance so I'm going to pick up a couple (red and white) and see how they come out. Even if they don't turn out as good for sipping, they'll be fine for cooking wine.

EDIT: Added more detail regarding the kits, as WE has several levels.

 

[tjgaul]

I'm finding that I really like GSM wines and thought that this might be similar. I noticed that Winexpert offers this "flavor" in 2 different levels. The Selection kit at 16L and the Vintner's Reserve kit at 10L. Does anyone have an opinion on either kit and/or how they compare?

The GSM I have made myself is the WE Vineyard Australian Grenache Shiraz Mourverdre which is only 12L, but comes with a skin pack. I have one batch that is 13 months old and is drinking pretty well and a 2nd batch that was started on the 4th of July and is still in a carboy. The Vieux Chateau du Roi has been on my wish list for a while. I was thinking it would be a good companion to the GSM.

Winemaker81 . . . thanks for launching the new thread.

 

[winemaker81]

Glad to be of service! This conversation deserved a new thread.

The larger volume WE kits are typically better, although I've found the basic kits are still pretty good. I'm making the higher end one, the Selection.

Racked it a short while ago. It had a surprising amount of sediment -- I used almost an entire bottle of pinot noir to top the carboy. I've had a few kits that seemed to have a lot of sediment. Kind of like when I purchased juice from the bottom of the tank -- I learned to get to the vineyard the day the juice was first available. Waiting until the last day was a mistake.

Appearance? The wine is very dark, it's indistinguishable from the elderberry sitting next to it. In the attached picture, the kit is on the right, with a dry elderberry to the left and a sweet elderberry in front.

Taste? It's medium bodied and certainly green (no surprise), and on the fruity side. I'm not sure what varieties are in it. However, I have expectations that it will make a good sipper and an excellent pasta wine. I can visualize it with lasagna. I like a heavy red with steak and this one may be too light for that, and too heavy for salmon. [Not that I'm going to let preconceived ideas stop me from investigating in detail!]

 

[LouisCKpasteur]

I've made this kit several times. I've thought along the same lines as you - the last time I made this was in Januaury - and that was to give my other GSM - the limited release Winexpert Eclipse Nocturnal, a fighting chance at making it to a couple of years of age (I made two Nocturnals: One is sitting at 16 months the other at 14). Old Vieux is just a tad thinner than the Nocturnal, and the Nocturnal has a touch of Cinsault in addition to the GSM, and I feel is a obviously better representation of the style, but of course, it's a premium kit. The Old Vieux is what I drink the most by far. Still haven't tired the Australian GSM.

 

[LouisCKpasteur]

I'd add that I've sent emails to Winexpert begging them to consider making the Eclipse Nocturnal a regular in their lineup. Hope others do the same.

 

[cmason1957]

I'd add that I've sent emails to Winexpert begging them to consider making the Eclipse Nocturnal a regular in their lineup. Hope others do the same.

I'd love to hear others impressions of the Eclipse Nocturnal, I was very excited about this kit when I got it. I still have it in the carboy and so far MMMEEEHHHH doesn't even begin to describe how I feel about it so far. It just does nothing for me. Almost disappointed by it.

 

[pillswoj]

I'd love to hear others impressions of the Eclipse Nocturnal, I was very excited about this kit when I got it. I still have it in the carboy and so far MMMEEEHHHH doesn't even begin to describe how I feel about it so far. It just does nothing for me. Almost disappointed by it.

I decided not to even taste it until the 2 year mark, any eclipse red I have done has been Meh until about 20 months. I guess the other question cmason is do you generally enjoy GSM wines? I found I got caught in the trap of making all the limited editions just because they were limited editions, I am now being much more selective about what I make, of course I know I like a good GSM so I have high hopes for the Noctural.

 

[LouisCKpasteur]

Well, it's got me curious enough to hopefully open a bottle tonight at the 16 month mark. I'm very partial to GSM's myself.

 

[cmason1957]

I decided not to even taste it until the 2 year mark, any eclipse red I have done has been Meh until about 20 months. I guess the other question cmason is do you generally enjoy GSM wines? I found I got caught in the trap of making all the limited editions just because they were limited editions, I am now being much more selective about what I make, of course I know I like a good GSM so I have high hopes for the Noctural.

I like pretty much any red wine, and GSM's are very tasty usually. Maybe I just expect to much from it this early.

Well, it's got me curious enough to hopefully open a bottle tonight at the 16 month mark. I'm very partial to GSM's myself.

I do hope you give some feedback about it. I'm hopeful it is wonderful.

 

[tjgaul]

cmason . . . I had the same experience with the RJS En Primeur Super Tuscan. Everyone raves about this kit & I know I like the component grapes, but at the first 3 month racking I found it to be worse than Meh. Certainly not big & bold. I am hoping that it is just a timing thing and that it really comes around in a few months. And I hope your Nocturnal wows you before too long.

Time is often, but not always, the cure. I hope we're both believers in a few months.

 

[ceeaton]

cmason . . . I had the same experience with the RJS En Primeur Super Tuscan. Everyone raves about this kit & I know I like the component grapes, but at the first 3 month racking I found it to be worse than Meh. Certainly not big & bold. I am hoping that it is just a timing thing and that it really comes around in a few months. And I hope your Nocturnal wows you before too long.

Time is often, but not always, the cure. I hope we're both believers in a few months.

Tim, remind me if we have another NE meetup next year and I'll bring a (hopefully bottled by then) 29 month old WE SE Vieux CduR I have. I added a few lbs of Pinot Noir grape skins, but I doubt that changed the profile very much. Otherwise I followed the instructions supplied for the most part.

Edit: just tipped the carboy for a partial glass. This has really improved in my opinion, if I didn't actually pour the wine I'd think it came from a bottle of commercial wine, no kit taste evident to me. On the plus side it has a nice nose to it as well. Reminds me of a smoother version of a Chianti, which is probably why I chose the kit since I enjoy a nice cherry background flavor. This is a very nice wine. I'll surely make it again once I pay off the new wave of bills.

 

[bstnh1]

In another thread I was asked about a Vieux Chateau du Roi that I have in production. Since this may (or may not) turn into a lengthy conversation, instead of threadjacking I'm starting a new thread.

I started a Winexpert Selection Vieux Chateau du Roi at the beginning of October. So far it's progressing well -- I'm going to rack it today as there is a significant sediment build up. I'm following the kit instructions (with the proviso that timelines are minimums) and expect to bottle in early December. Or maybe late December, depending on free time around the holidays.

It's a medium bodied red and based upon tastings at rackings, I will enjoy this one. I don't think it's a long ager, but I'm going to leave it alone for a year (other than quarterly tests) and will try to reserve a few bottles for longer term aging. I made it more as a "drink now" wine to give other reds a fighting chance at aging.

I recently converted my original wine making site to a new one, and when moving my logs i realized this is the third time I've made this kit. Although the three instances are not the same kit:

• 1996 WineArt (my first wine kit)
• 2011 R J Spagnols Heritage Estates
• 2018 Winexpert Selection

In reading my logs I noticed 2 things:

• Kit wines work better if I follow the instructions and don't treat them as fresh grape wines.
• Kits have improved significantly in quality since my first kit 22 years ago.

I've also noticed that I don't like the R J Spagnols kits as much, excepting their dessert wines. My local shop has some kits on clearance so I'm going to pick up a couple (red and white) and see how they come out. Even if they don't turn out as good for sipping, they'll be fine for cooking wine.

EDIT: Added more detail regarding the kits, as WE has several levels.

I Made the WE Selection version of this kit a few years ago. It was an "OK" red, very drinkable, but not a favorite of those who tasted it. No one who tried it said "Wow, is this good!" It was just "OK". Three years of aging hasn't really improved it much.

 

[winemaker81]

ceeaton -- chianti, that's the best analogy I could make for mine. As I said, the green sample was surprisingly fruity. Not sweet (it's bone dry), but fruity. I'd like to know what this one will be like at the five year mark ... but I seriously doubt it has a chance of that!

This is a wine I'll pop in the right circumstances. I expect friends who are not really red wine drinkers may like it.

I'm fighting down the expectation that the same kit will be the same from year to year. Sure, the vendors blend things to produce a consistent kit, but there's only so much they can do. If one year has better grapes, that year's kit will be better.

Beer is easy. Follow the recipe and the beer will turn out the same each time. Grapes ... not so much.

Chances are I'll do this kit again in a few years.

 

[ceeaton]

Bryan, I made this one with about the same expectations as you did. A nice red wine for when you don't want anything really heavy, or as a wine for friends who aren't avid Cab Sauv or heavier red drinkers. Mine is still fruity (but bone dry), so I'm hoping it retains that for a few more years. We make a lot of pizza and pasta dishes with red sauce around here and I think it is going to be the perfect wine for those meals.

I might just get one to the five year mark, who knows. The older I get the easier it is to forget about things (whether on purpose or not).

 

[LouisCKpasteur]

Okay, I uncorked a bottle of Nocturnal on which the yeast was dropped on July 31st, 2017. The raspberry and plum notes are there, the woodsmoke not so much, and nothing but the subtlest hint of the oaking regime as prescribed by the kit instructions. So I'd describe it as a bit fruit forwardy, just a little, with a nose that dissipates a little quicker than I'd like and a finish that lingers, but maybe not as long as I'd like. It went down sumptuously with some roast beef, of the North American Arby's variety. I like it better than old Vieux, and it's comparable to some of the cheaper Southern Rhones I've had. If it was in WE's lineup I'd definitely do it again based on the 16 month mark. We'll see what it develops into.

 

[sour_grapes]

It went down sumptuously with some roast beef, of the North American Arby's variety.

Now that is a good line!

I like it better than old Vieux

Better than "old old"? This reminds me that saying "The La Brea Tar Pits" is actually saying "The The Tar Tar Pits."

 

[LouisCKpasteur]

I know enough French that I shoulda known better.

 

[cmason1957]

I know little or no French, so I didn't catch the unintential fax pass.

 

[sour_grapes]

I know enough French that I shoulda known better.

Oh, I don't think there was anything wrong with what you wrote! What else could you say? The two "olds" were referring to two different things!

C.f. Torpenhow Hill : "Hill hill hill hill."

 

[LouisCKpasteur]

The French are very testy about their appellations. So Vieux Chateau du Roi and the Eclipse Nocturne are, at least in the case of the former for sure, clever workarounds for Chateauneuf du Pape. I like how they're tety about their appellations, but this all starts with them swiping the Papacy from Rome and installing it in Avignon in the early 14th century - but whether it is the Chateau of the Pope (Pape) or the King (Roi) it is my favorite!