Water chemistry?

[wineinmd]

I've dipped my toes into the water chemistry aspect of homebrewing and was wondering how important of a factor it is in winemaking. Will regular tap water work? Would there be any benefit to using reverse osmosis or distilled water?

Thanks!

 

[Deezil]

R/O and distilled water are both devoid of the minerals and vitamins normally found in water, which makes them a bit harsher even drinking as water - this will translate into the finished wine.

Spring water is preferred, but if you drink your tap water, then using tap water would be fine.

I tend to make wines that are more juice than water these days, and my tap water isn't too bad, so I feel fine using it for the minimal amounts that I do need.

 

[wineinmd]

R/O and distilled water are both devoid of the minerals and vitamins normally found in water, which makes them a bit harsher even drinking as water - this will translate into the finished wine.

Spring water is preferred, but if you drink your tap water, then using tap water would be fine.

I tend to make wines that are more juice than water these days, and my tap water isn't too bad, so I feel fine using it for the minimal amounts that I do need.

Thanks. In homebrewing, if one starts with R/O they then add some desired minerals back into the R/O water to get the proper amount of certain minerals. I wasn't sure if there was an equivalent in winemaking.

My tap water is OK, but not great. I much prefer to get it from the refrigerator which is filtered. I guess I'll go with spring water then. Since so much of the end product of the kit is water, I figured it makes sense to make sure I get that part right.

I appreciate the input. The engineer in me wants to investigate every aspect and make sure I'm not missing out on an easy steps to help improve quality.

 

[Deezil]

If you have the ability to add the minerals back to the R/O water, that would work. The filtered fridge water would too, but I can imagine the pain that would be lol

 

[DoctorCAD]

I just use a Brira. It takes some smell and off flavors out but nothing more.

 

[murphyaii]

I've used tap water for my first batch of wine and it tasted very sharp.
Then i went to the supermarket and bought mineral and spring water for the next batch of wine and the taste is hugely different and much more smoother.

so that's my 2 cents of intel.

 

[wineinmd]

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

Does anyone have a quick overview on what minerals should be added to R/O water? I can get it for $0.30/gallon, so that would be an attractive option for me vs. getting 5+ gallons of water from my fridge. My first kit is a Sauv Blanc, if that makes any difference, but I'm planning on doing some reds too, so an all-encompassing overview would be great.

 

[Floandgary]

Public water systems use chemical means to purify/disinfect their water. The chemical presence can be quite noticeable at times. Though not harmful, generally speaking, they can lend an unintended "nose' to what should be a pleasant aroma. Well water, typically a go-to, can be fraught with iron/hardness issues. Easily treated and every so often checked for undesirables. Spring water, now there's a treat! How many remember a pipe sticking out of a hillside with an inexhaustible supply of crystal clear, cold, sweet water and usually a lineup of people with an assortment of containers?
Alas,, with so many modern day chemicals, agricultural and industrial, deposited in our soil it could be risky. When I need to use any quantity of water in my winemaking I prefer bottled spring water if that's truly what it is. So far no problems

 

[wineinmd]

I've not had much luck finding anything specific regarding additions. The best I've found is this site that talks about the issues relative to each of the typical sources of water, along with a suggestion that adding yeast nutrient to distilled water would be a good starting point.

 

[richmke]

a suggestion that adding yeast nutrient to distilled water would be a good starting point.

Use something like Fermax that includes minerals. Some yeast nutrient are just DAP and Ammonia.

 

[wineinmd]

Use something like Fermax that includes minerals. Some yeast nutrient are just DAP and Ammonia.

This is the stuff I have.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/yeast-nutrient.html

A quick search on urea revealed some mixed feelings on the product. My "local" homebrew/wine/cheese store sells Fermax. I might go with spring water this time and pick up some Fermax the next time I'm at my local homebrew/wine/cheese store to use on a future batch.

 

[Deezil]

Doug, at Brew and Wine Supply, one of the forum sponsors, has the hook up on most of the Scotts Lab products; it's what I use, and where I got them. Prices and shipping are reasonable, customer service is top notch.

 

[Norton]

"Distilled Water
Distilled water is water from which all the minerals have been removed, either by a distillation or reverse osmosis process. We don't recommend using distilled water alone when reconstituting your concentrated grape juice, because the wine yeast depends upon a small amount of minerals for "food" in order to live and convert the sugar into alcohol and carbon dioxide."

This was the objection that I saw to using reverse osmosis water. I have always used reverse osmosis water but I've never had a problem with fermentation.

 

[wineinmd]

This was the objection that I saw to using reverse osmosis water. I have always used reverse osmosis water but I've never had a problem with fermentation.

That's what I saw too after already picking up some R/O water. I'm not in a big hurry and I figure it can't hurt to use the Fermax, so I'll wait until I can get some before using the R/O water. I'll pick up some spring water for this batch.

I can equate this a little to pitching liquid yeast while brewing. Tossing a vial of liquid yeast right into the wort will make decent beer. Making a starter though ensures you have healthy yeast in sufficient amount to fully complete the task without stressing them. If everything else is equal, the end result will very likely be a better finished product.

This might be much ado about nothing, but for the extra $0.25 a batch, I'll give the Fermax a shot.

 

[wineinmd]

The engineer/researcher in me took over this weekend and I've come up with a new plan. Lately, I'd been reading more and working on incorporating new yeast handling practices in my brewing, so I figured I should look into it a little more for wine. I couldn't find much info online about the Fermax, so I did some further digging.

Based on other threads on here, specifically this post, and reading up on Lallemand website, I'm going to start the yeast off with Go-Ferm and then add Fermaid O at the end of the lag phase and about 1/3 of the way through fermentation.

I'm pretty comfortable with additions and this sounds like a fairly scientific approach. I don't quite understand all of the inner workings of the yeast, but I've learned enough from brewing that good yeast handling practices can make noticeable differences in the finished product. Treat them right and they'll do a great job.

Edit to add: Here's a link to a quick run-down from Lallemand. Granted, it's a sales pitch for their products, but the underlying pamphlet did a good job of introducing the science behind it.

Edit 2: After reading more about the differences between Fermaid K and Fermaid O, I'll be going with O.

 

[wineinmd]

Deezil,

Your post really got me headed in the right direction. Can you explain your thought process behind this...

That's not to say you can't accomplish a Low-YAN ferment with Fermaid-O, its just cost-prohibitive.

What are the costs involved? I would have thought that a Low-YAN ferment would need fewer additions. It looks like Fermaid O is about twice as expensive, but the cost of each is small compared to the cost of the kit.

 

[sour_grapes]

I believe that by "low-YAN ferment," he meant fermenting a must that, in its native state, had a low amount of yeast-assimilable nitrogen. Such a must would require larger additions of nutrient, hence the higher cost.

I grant you that "low-YAN ferment" could be read either way.

 

[wineinmd]

I went back and forth on it, but couldn't tell if I was missing something. Fermaid O is about twice as expensive and it looks like it contributes about 1/2 the amount on YAN per given amount, so that made sense, but I ended up deciding that it read the other way.

Now I have to figure out the most cost-effective way to get the Go-Ferm and Fermaid O. Looks like shipping will be just as much as the products and I didn't see either one at my LHBS yesterday. I saw the reply earlier about Brew & Wine Supply and their prices are competitive to the bigger stores, so I might try them.

 

[Gussman]

I use Spring Water from Deer Park , Maryland, and it is very good and I continually get a great taste from my wine. But, here in Parkersburg, West Virginia, our water is real soft and very few chemicals have been added due to our geographical location of being right on the Ohio River with lots of Spring Fed Creeks. WalMart has Spring Water for $1.00 a gallon if you have access. I guess you have to use trial and error (TE) to see what works best for you. Preferably, I'd use Spring Water.

 

[Deezil]

I believe that by "low-YAN ferment," he meant fermenting a must that, in its native state, had a low amount of yeast-assimilable nitrogen. Such a must would require larger additions of nutrient, hence the higher cost.

I grant you that "low-YAN ferment" could be read either way.

Bingo... but I see what you're saying, thanks for pointing that out.

I went back and forth on it, but couldn't tell if I was missing something. Fermaid O is about twice as expensive and it looks like it contributes about 1/2 the amount on YAN per given amount, so that made sense, but I ended up deciding that it read the other way.

Now I have to figure out the most cost-effective way to get the Go-Ferm and Fermaid O. Looks like shipping will be just as much as the products and I didn't see either one at my LHBS yesterday. I saw the reply earlier about Brew & Wine Supply and their prices are competitive to the bigger stores, so I might try them.

Pretty sure Brew & Wine supply uses flat rate shipping boxes, which beats most other shipping charges. I bought pretty big packages at the time to make the shipping more acceptable for my situation.. I ended up spending more, but I've yet to need to restock much of anything. I'll probably need Fermaid-O before anything else though.

Fermaid-O is half the YAN by numbers, but because it's assimilated more efficiently, it stretches farther than it sounds(2-3x). This is something you can see Seth and I going back and forth on in various threads on the forum. I assume it's worth more (3x) than he does (2x), but I hover over my fermentations smelling for H2S and have used this experience to come to my conclusion. Seth adds more Fermaid-O than I do, because he uses the lower factor for the efficiency, but we both seem to churn out pretty good finished products using different approaches.