What causes my wine to be sour? and

[Snafflebit]

I will only make a total acidity addition at the final racking where I am doing bottling decisions. . . . . . A $100 bottle of wine tastes smooth, not having long acid notes.

I am starting to come around to this idea. "Wine is made in the vineyard", it is said. And, I do have long acid notes in the wine which I find distracting, although I am finding many commercial red wines have a pH in the range of 3.4-3.5 similar to my wine, which surprised me. I think I will give the post fermentation acid adjustment, if needed, a try this year, at least in one batch.

 

[CDrew]

I have come to the conclusion that the wineries have it right. They adjust pH only, and they adjust pre-fermentation. I think the most tartaric acid I have ever added is about 1.5gm per liter of finished wine. Ideally, all red wine would be pH 3.6 in the vineyard but it isn't, and you can nudge it slightly in the direction you want.

Whatever was the issue with the TA 11 wine you measured earlier? Was it just the reagent?

 

[Snafflebit]

Whatever was the issue with the TA 11 wine you measured earlier? Was it just the reagent?

Yes. I tested with fresh Sodium Hydroxide and the TA measured 5.9 g/L

 

[winechef]

That's a lot of bubbles. I've never degassed my wines ever. after bulk aging 6. months I've never had more than a few bubbles even if shake the wine vigorously.

wonder why your wine has so much gas. do you ferment it too hot, or do you mess with lower and raising ph too. much. if add acid and then something basic to tweak it?

 

[Snafflebit]

Dredging this thread again, stirring the lees and seeing what gurgles up!

I am sampling my wines and in comparison when I open a bottle of something commercial that I really like I have decided to test the pH, and TA when possible.

So, I opened a bottle of 2019 Ridge, and interesting blend of Syrah, Grenache and Mataro. I recommend it. So smooth on the palate. I wish I had some more


My 2022 80%Cab 20%Merlot 3.79 pH TA 6.2 g/L
Ridge 2019 86%Syrah 7%Grenache 7%Mataro 3.67 pH TA 5.9 g/L

Ridge wine tastes smooth and integrated. It also tastes more tannic than my wine. I am sure it is barrel aged.

In contrast, in my wine the acid bites a little in the back of the throat unlike the Ridge and does not taste "integrated" like the Ridge. It is not sour, but just has an acidic sourness on the finsh that lingers, which the Ridge does not.

I wonder if the secret is barrel aging, or just aging, or just more tannin. This is a challenge to track down, but I am trying to do it. I am starting to think acid additions over 1 g/L do not integrate well

 

[Snafflebit]

Although this was interesting to see on the back side of the bottle Ridge adds tartaric acid also Hmm

 

[ibglowin]

What are you aging in currently if not a barrel?

 

[BarrelMonkey]

I am starting to think acid additions over 1 g/L do not integrate well

A lot depends on when you do the additions... start of fermentation is best, but the later you leave it the harder IMO to integrate.

Although this was interesting to see on the back side of the bottle Ridge adds tartaric acid also Hmm

I think it's quite common for commercial winemakers to do this. It will depend on the vintage and initial juice numbers (pH, TA, brix primarily) - great wine is indeed made in the vineyard but sometimes Mother nature needs an assist...

 

[wood1954]

An all in one transfer pump degasses really well and generally makes wine making easier. I highly recommend one. Glycerin will take off that sour note and add some body. I’ve only used it once but it really does help.

 

[Snafflebit]

What are you aging in currently if not a barrel?

Strictly carboys

 

[Snafflebit]

An all in one transfer pump degasses really well and generally makes wine making easier. I highly recommend one. Glycerin will take off that sour note and add some body. I’ve only used it once but it really does help.

Yes, this acid taste problem could really be my friend CO2 again, still dissolved in the wine like last year's carboys. I assume the barrel aging helps a lot with letting out CO2.
That will be my next check, to see if my degassing wand makes a difference.

 

[Snafflebit]

And here is most of the tartaric acid,

 

[Rice_Guy]

My 2022 80%Cab 20%Merlot 3.79 pH TA 6.2 g/L
Ridge 2019 86%Syrah 7%Grenache 7%Mataro 3.67 pH TA 5.9 g/L

In contrast, in my wine the acid bites a little in the back of the throat unlike the Ridge and does not taste "integrated" like the Ridge. It is not sour, but just has an acidic sourness on the finsh that lingers, which the Ridge does not.

* when I see back of the throat my reaction is that you have an oxidation issue, too much head space or not enough meta. You should isolate this out if you raise the pH to 7 or 8 and taste it. Acetaldehyde acts as a multiplier with acid notes. Risk wise you have a red so it should be oxidation resistant.
* another test is clear the CO2 but this has more of a bitter note like seltzer water. I like to microwave 30 seconds then stir, and then cool back to room temp.
* your numbers are good. I would be happy to make reds like that

 

[ibglowin]

Strictly carboys

The answer to wines that taste like they are commercial wines lies right there.

Get yourself a barrel.

You need the micro-ox and concentration through evaporation (angels share) to take your wines to the next level. Not sure how much your making but living where you are you should be able to find used/good ones at a decent price. No wine that spends its life in glass will ever be as good as one that spent a good portion of its time in a barrel. I did carboys for a couple years and felt like you do now and then I bought a new 6G/23L Hungarian oak barrel. By the time it was too late I had four of them and I was rotating wines through them nonstop. Its fine if they are neutral. Just add high quality oak adjuncts to your liking.

 

[VinesnBines]

Get yourself a barrel.

Midwest Barrels is having a small barrel sale. Midwest Barrel Co. – Used Wine & Bourbon Barrels
Granted they are American oak and the used ones are freshly bourbon dumped but the prices are great. From what I read, the bourbon flavor doesn't come through much if at all. Once they are neutral, you can add whatever oak you like and get the benefits of micro oxidation.

 

[Snafflebit]

I think everyone is right about barrels. I need them to go to the next level, it is a committment I have been delaying.

Midwest Barrels is having a small barrel sale. Midwest Barrel Co. – Used Wine & Bourbon Barrels
Granted they are American oak and the used ones are freshly bourbon dumped but the prices are great. From what I read, the bourbon flavor doesn't come through much if at all. Once they are neutral, you can add whatever oak you like and get the benefits of micro oxidation.

Midwest Barrels has a variety of used 5 gallon barrels for $120 plus $50 shipping, ouch but I may bite the bullet. I can get used 60 gallon barrels for $50, but there is really no one in California using small format barrels.

 

[Snafflebit]

I took a sample of my wine and agitated it for 2 minutes with a plastic fork. Much of that bite is gone. It is difficult to describe sensations that are right at the edge of detection. I am certain now that I was experiencing the sparkling quality of a gassy wine, great in Champagne but not in my Merlot.

Okay the issue is settled. I have delayed enough buying an AIO pump or some other vacuum pump.

 

[Rotundifolia]

I think everyone is right about barrels. I need them to go to the next level, it is a committment I have been delaying.

Midwest Barrels has a variety of used 5 gallon barrels for $120 plus $50 shipping, ouch but I may bite the bullet. I can get used 60 gallon barrels for $50, but there is really no one in California using small format barrels.

Sorry just following this thread. I went to the winemaking magazine course this last year and there was several discussion regarding micro oxidation. The tannins need a small about of oxygen to develop. Wine in a glass carboy that hasn't been racked because of snow will need racking. O2 does not permeate the glass carboys. So racking is necessary for using glass for two reasons: 1) to degass 2) get the tannins compound. So this is why initially you liked it better after it was racked. It is also better to expose to oxygen early (i.e. rank once early - typically after MLF).

The best way to do this in the future is keep the wine maturing in a flex tank or barrel. However, for me these are not an option - too heavy to move to longterm storage. I plan on racking early. but I also am experimenting with the PRIMO RO water bottles sold in the store because there is small O2 in plastic ( why the flex tank is a good option). However, different plastics have different O2 penetration.). So who know if this will help. Definately racking early is a good option if using glass carboys for longer storage vessels.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

I think everyone is right about barrels. I need them to go to the next level, it is a committment I have been delaying.

I just bought one of these: Balazs Hungarian Oak Barrel

Too early to comment on sensory impact, but so far I am impressed by the quality. And every winemaker should experience - at least once - that wonderful smell when you fill a new barrel with new wine

Mine is the 112L version but they make everything from 1L (about 1/4 gal) up to 20hL/528 gal...

 

[MiBor]

I really like Gibbs Bros. Arkansas oak barrels. I mainly make CS and Merlot, and the first wines that went into those barrels retained a really nice oak character.

Top Quality Wine/Spirit Barrels | Mysite

I bought quite a few of them (different sizes) and never had a problem. I'm still using all of them, although they are all neutral now.

I've also had a couple of 6gal Hungarian oak barrels (Vadai, Zemplen forest oak) a few years ago and they were very nicely crafted, but they came with multiple grain leaks that would not close up even after a month of swelling, so I had to learn how to fix them myself with wood spiles. After two years of use, one of them developed a head leak and the other had a stave that bulged out in the middle, to the point that the barrel wasn't holding liquid anymore. I got angry and burned them both in a bonfire...