When and why do you backsweeten?

[RylanJacobs]

My chardonnay from last fall has completed MLF and aged on fine lees for 6 months. I have racked off the fine lees and begun the clearing process.

My brief tasting notes:
Aroma: consistent with varietal. Overall, very pleasing.

Palette:
- Front: Fruit-forward with acidity that is detectable and refreshing. (This is strange to me since MLF is complete)
- Middle: Hot. ABV estimated at 13.9%. This seems to dominate and overpower here. It's not bad, but not what I prefer. It's lacking in fruit as well as other primary flavors.
- End: Autolysis flavors consistent with aging on fine lees.


Question:
I would like to soften the heat and intensity of the middle-palette profile. The way I see it, I have 3 choices:

1) Introduce French Oak chips and age for another 3 months. This would change the entire tasting profile, but could "mask" the intensity of the alcohol.
2) Backsweeten (not something I want to do, but would consider if it would help)
3) Continue aging and finish clearing. Taste again in 3-6 months.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!!

 

[RylanJacobs]

I meant to change the thread handle prior to submitting. I originally thought backsweetening would be my only choice. I feel I have more options though.

 

[winechef]

Take a small sample and separate an ounce or so in different glasses cold crash in the fridge. add a drop of sugar syrup to one, add 2 oak chips to another. wait a day and test. I often try a few different things

 

[MiBor]

A half-ounce of vegetable glycerin per gallon may give you the desired effect. Glycerin has a mild sweetening effect as well as "rounding off the rough edges" in a wine. The taste will seem a little off in the beginning but the wine integrates the glycerin and improves (becomes smoother) in a month or two. Most home winemakers I know use up to 1 oz/gal in all the wines they make.

 

[winemaker81]

It appears you have 2 separate problems -- high ABV and high acid.

For the high ABV, another option is to blend with a lower ABV wine.

Regarding acid, MLF affects only malic acid. If the tartaric acid is high, it will remain high.

Cold stabilizing may help with that, but won't change the high ABV. I agree that glycerin may help, and time in bottle may also soften the wine.

Regarding backsweetening, IIRC, sorbate and MLB are a bad mix. While I backsweeten a few wines, I also keep a bottle of Agave nectar handy so folks can backsweeten by the glass, which eliminates the need for sorbate.

 

[RylanJacobs]

It appears you have 2 separate problems -- high ABV and high acid.

For the high above, another option is to blend with a lower ABV wine.

Regarding acid, MLF affects only malic acid. If the tartaric acid is high, it will remain high.

Cold stabilizing may help with that, but won't change the high ABV. I agree that glycerin may help, and time in bottle may also soften the wine.

Regarding backsweetening, IIRC, sorbate and MLB are a bad mix. While I backsweeten a few wines, I also keep a bottle of Agave nectar handy so folks can backsweeten by the glass, which eliminates the need for sorbate.

So true. I completely forgot that backsweetening should not occur with MLF!! What is it, geranium (??) flavors that can develop as a result?

 

[RylanJacobs]

I appreciate the replies. I'll bench test glycerin and give it more time in bulk aging.

I'm beginning to understand why so many hot-climate chardonnay makers use oak....it probably helps balance out the high abv and otherwise neutral profile of the grape.

 

[Rice_Guy]

What you are debating is “where to balance your wine?” For sweet vs acid this thread may help.

This update has blue ribbon and red ribbon non-tannin wines as diamonds, blue ribbon and red ribbon tannic wines (mostly reds) as stars. The black dots are third place/ white ribbon and no place wines.
View attachment 111314
Balance to meet the US market is one of the properties that makes a great wine. Aroma and how bad the defects are will be at least as important as where the balance is placed.

At this time I have looked at several hundred commercial and club wines. The whole data set looks like a fan shape cloud. From this I would assume that personal taste is quite variable (and maybe wonder if folks know how to change sweetness).
View attachment 111320

Alcohol without contaminants should taste sweet. You have other choices as xylose does a natural sweet flavor.
Oak adds contrasting flavor notes which creates interest in an uninteresting blend. ,,, In this line you also have finishing tannins which you could bench trial.
As a general rule no added sugar is more stable.
Age by itself will reduce the acidity, (alcohol combined with acid produces an esther )

 

[MiBor]

You have other choices as xylose does a natural sweet flavor.

Doesn't Saccharomyces partially ferment Xylose? I remember looking for an alternative wine sweetener that didn't restart fermentation a while back, and I decided against Xylose for that reason. I could be totally wrong about that, but that's what I remember. David, have you tried using it in your wines?

 

[Rice_Guy]

Doesn't Saccharomyces partially ferment,,, have you tried using it in your wines?

Xylose is a sugar alcohol, it is naturally produced so I should look into that,, natural metabolism makes sense.

Yes I have used it, my biggest comment is the sweetness is low.

 

[RylanJacobs]

What you are debating is “where to balance your wine?” For sweet vs acid this thread may help.

Alcohol without contaminants should taste sweet. You have other choices as xylose does a natural sweet flavor.
Oak adds contrasting flavor notes which creates interest in an uninteresting blend. ,,, In this line you also have finishing tannins which you could bench trial.
As a general rule no added sugar is more stable.
Age by itself will reduce the acidity, (alcohol combined with acid produces an esther )

The TA at fermentation was 5.7 g/L. I haven't checked since MLF, but a quick rule-of-thumb calculation for every would suggest my current TA is around 4 g/L.

I guess that would still be quite perceptible.


I"m thinking more and more that perhaps this chard is just simply low in flavor, and doesn't have enough "umph" to overpower the 14% abv. It's not bad, but it definitely is noticeably weak.

 

[winemaker81]

I"m thinking more and more that perhaps this chard is just simply low in flavor, and doesn't have enough "umph" to overpower the 14% abv. It's not bad, but it definitely is noticeably weak.

That's a hard one for many winemakers to accept -- not all batches turn out great, regardless of what we do.

I make a quickie Sangria -- bottle of wine + juice from 1 each orange, lemon, and lime. Add sugar to taste.

Cook with it -- boiled wine pretty much all tastes alike.

 

[MiBor]

I'm thinking more and more that perhaps this chard is just simply low in flavor, and doesn't have enough "umph" to overpower the 14% abv. It's not bad, but it definitely is noticeably weak.

Rylan, can you tell us more about your Chard? Was it grapes, juice bucket or a kit that you fermented? What was your yeast of choice/MLB?

I made my fair share of underwhelming white wines but I've learned something from each of those experiences. I'm sure others have had the same problem you're having with the taste profile and it would be helpful for all of us to exchange opinions and experiences on what-to-do/what-not-to-do when it comes to Chardonnay. We're all here to learn and grow our knowledge of winemaking, and sharing the details is a big part of that.

 

[RylanJacobs]

Rylan, can you tell us more about your Chard? Was it grapes, juice bucket or a kit that you fermented? What was your yeast of choice/MLB?

I made my fair share of underwhelming white wines but I've learned something from each of those experiences. I'm sure others have had the same problem you're having with the taste profile and it would be helpful for all of us to exchange opinions and experiences on what-to-do/what-not-to-do when it comes to Chardonnay. We're all here to learn and grow our knowledge of winemaking, and sharing the details is a big part of that.

Absolutely!

This is chardonnay from Chehalem AVA in Oregon. Purchased as a juice bucket from Wine Grapes Direct, my process was this:

Pre-fermentation: added 25ppm SO2 and pectic enzyme. Settled for 24 hours. pH: 3.46, TA: 5.7 g/L

Fermentation: Inoculated with Renaissance Fresco (non-H2S forming) yeast. This is a cider yeast, but has a small following amongst white winemakers who like Riesling, Chenin Blanc, Viognier, etc. Fermentation lasted about 9 days and went from SG: 1.10 down to 0.998. Did a dirty rack to a carboy where I aged it on the lees for 6 months.

MLF: CH30 plus opti-malo was added after racking to secondary. Monitored MLF over the course of the next four (!!!) months. Once spring temps warmed, MLF finished around late April or early May. Confirmed with paper chromatography.
50ppm SO2 added at this time.

I racked off the fine lees earlier this week. Topped up the carboy and added another dose of SO2. Wine is still not clear, which is concerning. I'm considering bentonite if no progress is made by end of summer. It tastes fine, but not what I was hoping for from this region.

Any advice is truly appreciated. Love this forum!

 

[Rice_Guy]

rule-of-thumb calculation would suggest my current TA is around 4 g/L. , , , , perhaps this chard is just simply low in flavor, and doesn't have enough "umph" to overpower the 14% abv. It's not bad, but it definitely is noticeably weak.

a TA at 4g/L should taste thin / watery. As a wine judge we have a beaker of acid to see what the effect of a little acid is.
Words & translation , ,,, if I am picking a back of the throat burn When swallowing I assume acetaldehyde— ie oxidized ethyl alcohol.

 

[MiBor]

Fermentation: Inoculated with Renaissance Fresco (non-H2S forming) yeast. This is a cider yeast, but has a small following amongst white winemakers who like Riesling, Chenin Blanc, Viognier, etc.

https://renaissanceyeast.com/en/products/fresco/

@RylanJacobs thanks for posting the details about your Chardonnay.
I read the thread from the beginning and I think I have an opinion about what's happening.

First of all I'm not opposed to experimenting with different yeasts, additives and techniques in winemaking because that's how creativity is expressed with this craft. With that being stated, I don't think that expecting a truly great Chardonnay taste when using a cider yeast is realistic.

Again, I'm not finding fault with what you decided to do with your wine. What I'm saying is that maybe the taste profile you described in your first post, lines up with what a cider would be like, more than classic Chardonnay wine aged on lees. Renaissance themselves don't recommend Fresco for Chardonnay. Is there a reason or a story behind your choice of yeast?

 

[winemaker81]

I don't think that expecting a truly great Chardonnay taste when using a cider yeast is realistic.

Great catch!

Unless we taste them side-by-side, I suspect a lot of winemakers don't fully realize how much difference yeast strain can make. During the last few years I've been splitting batches and using multiple yeast, one per batch. So far, I can taste a difference in the young wines, although I'm fermenting for complexity and blending the batches.

 

[RylanJacobs]

https://renaissanceyeast.com/en/products/fresco/

@RylanJacobs thanks for posting the details about your Chardonnay.
I read the thread from the beginning and I think I have an opinion about what's happening.

First of all I'm not opposed to experimenting with different yeasts, additives and techniques in winemaking because that's how creativity is expressed with this craft. With that being stated, I don't think that expecting a truly great Chardonnay taste when using a cider yeast is realistic.

Again, I'm not finding fault with what you decided to do with your wine. What I'm saying is that maybe the taste profile you described in your first post, lines up with what a cider would be like, more than classic Chardonnay wine aged on lees. Renaissance themselves don't recommend Fresco for Chardonnay. Is there a reason or a story behind your choice of yeast?

I appreciate the reply. I suspect you are right.

My initial decision to use Fresco was due to a bad experience with H2S in a Riesling kit. Scarred by the experience, I wanted to use Renaissance moving forward.

Fresco was readily available in 10g batches via a supplier I routinely use. It has been recommended by The Home Winemaking Channel for use in Riesling and other whites. I figured it was worth a shot.

I should state that the Chardonnay is not bad. There’s no faults or other flaws. Color and aroma are good. The taste is good enough to serve to others…but it won’t wow anybody. Disappointing considering the provenance of the juice. The chehalem AVA has several chard producers making amazing wine.

I definitely would seek out a more conventional yeast in the future to align with my intended outcome. I separated the batch and have half now aging with French oak. I’ll come back in a few months and update on the progress.

 

[winemaker81]

My initial decision to use Fresco was due to a bad experience with H2S in a Riesling kit. Scarred by the experience, I wanted to use Renaissance moving forward.

H2S is a scary experience, and if not caught early, it's an extensive effort to fix.

Having encountered H2S several times in recent years, it taught me to pay attention to nutrition for the yeast, which is better regardless if the yeast will produce H2S or not.

While I'm using mostly Renaissance yeast, I'm not excluding other strains.

 

[MiBor]

I definitely would seek out a more conventional yeast in the future to align with my intended outcome.

All Renaissance yeasts are non-H2S forming and there are quite a few to pick from. I suspect they did a lot of testing with their products and found what strain works better for which varietal. Allegro is their most popular white wine yeast and a few renowned retailers sold it in 10 gram packs from time to time. Last time I checked, Lodi Wine Labs had it for sale in small packs, but now they only advertise the 500 grams package. Maybe they will sell it again in smaller quantities closer to winemaking season.

I purchased a full brick of Allegro almost 3 years ago and it is still viable. I take out what I need and vacuum-seal the rest and keep it in the freezer. It makes a very good Chardonnay and Viognier in my experience.

I also tried the TR-313 on Sauvignon Blanc (thanks Bryan) and was happy with the results.

I think all Renaissance yeasts are great if used for their intended purpose. If retailers don't start selling small quantities again, maybe we can organize group purchases and split bricks, like @winemaker81 did for us last year.

https://renaissanceyeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/RY-Wine_Yeast_catalogue-2022-EU.pdf