when good wines gone bad
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I am sorry but I am very confused by this information. As a Student and now a Certified Sommelier I have never heard of one instance of a Vintner using raisins. Is this practice an exclusively a home wine making technique? Because when I broached the subject with Commercial Wine Makers they thought I was pulling their leg. I promised I was not, but it was to no avail. Can anyone here explain this seemingly strange practice in accepted Wine Making Practice? When I think of raisins I do not think of a fine Cabernet Sauvignon. Do you ?
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Renee, you are a certified sommelier, and have never heard of Amarone?
C'mon, we do what we can, and if it makes the wine taste better, we will do it.
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Renee this is not a practice a winery would ever do. Home winemakers buying concentrate kits or juice pails from Chile or California try different things to tweak the juice hoping to replicate fresh pressed juice.
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bkisel
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Renee, we "hobbyists" will at times "tweak" with such things as raisins, bananas, currants and other stuff in an effort to improve our home made wines. We might try blends that would never cross a "Vintner's" mind to try.
I suppose you can trivialize Amarone when you can compare the appassimento process to adding raisins, but last time I checked, Amarone isn’t made from Thompson seedless that are heated up 145–155°F for 18 to 20 hours. But I do see somewhat the point which is your goal as Home Wine Makers is not to replicate fine elegant wines but to add ingredients to an inferior base which would never be used in real wine production to arrive at a product which some might find comfortable to consume. You may be successful at that but I doubt any of it would pass for the real thing.
ShawnDTurner
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Joe. It sounds like you should send renee a few bottles of your work. It would be interesting to hear what a Som thinks/ impressions of the process and works.
joeswine
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adding to the mix
RENEE, good to hear from you and that you took a interest in the fpac process so lets start you over and see if you can follow my way of thinking out side the box
first of all the Thompson seedless grapes were simmered done to create a smooth and easy to use package just as WINEXPERTS,and spagnol's wines kits come with a wet fpac, these are the same and if you haven't made wine before or are new to the industry, then this is something else to learn.
AMARONE IS MADE FROM A WINE BASE AND GRAPES THAT HAVE BEEN DRIED ON STRAW Mat's UNTIL READY,THAT'S THE PROCESS,READ ABOUT IT.
NOW back to the Thompson fpac ,what it does is starts to build the structure of the wines base, weather it's a kit or fresh juice even fresh grapes the maceration of the skins and the base are determine by the winemaker for color as well as adding structure and tannins to a certain extent to the base wine, over a determined period of time .we are simulating the fresh grape cap with out the work of the crush which most of us as home wine makers don't have the time or space to do, that is why the kit industry is here, so we try to think out side the box as it were and do what we can.I'm a huge amarone fan and have tasted and experienced wine making on my trips to Italy and have seen first hand how it's done and believe you me the grapes looked like raisins to me when they were being applied to the base wine. It's how they do it and the timing that gives amarone it's distinctive taste. ALL OF WHAT YOU SEE ON THIS THREAD IS HOW I PUT MY FINGER PRINT ON THE WINES I MAKE AND SEND TO COMPETITIONS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
THIS forum is based on taking each others experiences and working out what fits your needs best if any. For century's wine maker have used different fruits and berries as well as nuts and herbs in their wines this is just a extension, I understand that not all wines are applicable to raisins or other fruits just grapes of their own origin.
RENEE, good to hear from you and that you took a interest in the fpac process so lets start you over and see if you can follow my way of thinking out side the box
first of all the Thompson seedless grapes were simmered done to create a smooth and easy to use package just as WINEXPERTS,and spagnol's wines kits come with a wet fpac, these are the same and if you haven't made wine before or are new to the industry, then this is something else to learn.
AMARONE IS MADE FROM A WINE BASE AND GRAPES THAT HAVE BEEN DRIED ON STRAW Mat's UNTIL READY,THAT'S THE PROCESS,READ ABOUT IT.
NOW back to the Thompson fpac ,what it does is starts to build the structure of the wines base, weather it's a kit or fresh juice even fresh grapes the maceration of the skins and the base are determine by the winemaker for color as well as adding structure and tannins to a certain extent to the base wine, over a determined period of time .we are simulating the fresh grape cap with out the work of the crush which most of us as home wine makers don't have the time or space to do, that is why the kit industry is here, so we try to think out side the box as it were and do what we can.I'm a huge amarone fan and have tasted and experienced wine making on my trips to Italy and have seen first hand how it's done and believe you me the grapes looked like raisins to me when they were being applied to the base wine. It's how they do it and the timing that gives amarone it's distinctive taste. ALL OF WHAT YOU SEE ON THIS THREAD IS HOW I PUT MY FINGER PRINT ON THE WINES I MAKE AND SEND TO COMPETITIONS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
THIS forum is based on taking each others experiences and working out what fits your needs best if any. For century's wine maker have used different fruits and berries as well as nuts and herbs in their wines this is just a extension, I understand that not all wines are applicable to raisins or other fruits just grapes of their own origin.
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Get off your horse, please.
Thank you Joe for explaining your Philosophy. I was under the impression that Home Wine Makers were engaged in the activity to achieve as a goal making a wine which could stand up to the finest of a commercial counterpart. One does have to start with good grapes in order to achieve that goal. I see now with less than good fruit available to you, you are forced to look for alternatives to make up for the lack of good grapes. Reading other posts here those making what they call wine with odd ingredients may satisfy them but hardly can be considered an elegant or refined wine. There are standards in every endeavor. I just assumed the same existed for Home Wine Makers. Apparently that places me on a horse. I am sorry if you are offended but I am engaged in a career and this helps me understand why I hear so many negative comments from clients when the subject of Home Made wine comes up.
Renee--There are accomplished home winemakers--and then those that are "not so much." And some do this hobby to please themselves and their palletes--and not so much to wine ribbons or medals by going up against professional offerings. It is a hard thing to categorize home winemakers as there are so many different levels of those who are in this hobby.
I've had wine from home winemakers that are so terrible that ditch water would have been better to drink. And then I've had wine from others that could compete with ANY commercial wine--and sometimes, it's even BETTER.
Most people tell us that our wines beat anything they've had commercially. It can boil down to how much effort you put into the hobby. How much study you do. How well you understand each grape, and how much you understand wine science. Some of us are very studious and study nutrients, cultures, YAN, adjustment of TA and PH,and on and on. Just because we didn't go to school to learn winemaking doesn't mean we give the "french wave" to good wine science. But I think that that everyone should do what they want to do because after all---it's just a hobby--it's not an "ego thing." And a forum is to exchange ideas--not to critique everyone and try to use one-upmanship on each other. We're a band-of-brothers here--a family. It's not a competition.
I've had wine from home winemakers that are so terrible that ditch water would have been better to drink. And then I've had wine from others that could compete with ANY commercial wine--and sometimes, it's even BETTER.
Most people tell us that our wines beat anything they've had commercially. It can boil down to how much effort you put into the hobby. How much study you do. How well you understand each grape, and how much you understand wine science. Some of us are very studious and study nutrients, cultures, YAN, adjustment of TA and PH,and on and on. Just because we didn't go to school to learn winemaking doesn't mean we give the "french wave" to good wine science. But I think that that everyone should do what they want to do because after all---it's just a hobby--it's not an "ego thing." And a forum is to exchange ideas--not to critique everyone and try to use one-upmanship on each other. We're a band-of-brothers here--a family. It's not a competition.
And.....another thought here. Because we ARE home winemakers, we can do anything we want!!! We can make flavors that you'd NEVER find in the commercial market. Have you ever heard of wines like Niagara/lime? Or Concord vanilla? How about Concord anise? I assure you that you can't find these wines on any shelf. But are 3 that we make that are BIG hits with our friends. As hobbyists, we are ALWAYS experimenting and making "Frankenstien" wines that our friends just rave about!!!
This is a friendly forum, and yet I admit my response was not friendly. I apologize for that. But then again, your posts were not at all friendly, either.
You used rather freighted language to describe both the endeavors you favor ("fine elegant wine") and the ones some of us engage in ("seemingly strange practice," "inferior base," not "real winemaking," would not "pass for the real thing"). What, exactly, was your goal in doing this?
As others have pointed out, we are a disparate lot. Our goals, resources, and commitment differ greatly. And, by the way, this is also true of commercial winemakers. Does the existence of Boone's Farm give lie to your statement that "there are standards in every endeavor"? Of course not. Why, then, do you imply differently for home winemakers?
You used rather freighted language to describe both the endeavors you favor ("fine elegant wine") and the ones some of us engage in ("seemingly strange practice," "inferior base," not "real winemaking," would not "pass for the real thing"). What, exactly, was your goal in doing this?
As others have pointed out, we are a disparate lot. Our goals, resources, and commitment differ greatly. And, by the way, this is also true of commercial winemakers. Does the existence of Boone's Farm give lie to your statement that "there are standards in every endeavor"? Of course not. Why, then, do you imply differently for home winemakers?
seth8530
The Atomic Wine Maker
Berating an entire forum or an entire sector of hobbyist over the techniques used by a group of people or a person is not exactly what I would call a good way to make your introduction to a forum.
I make white wine from juice, and I make red wine from frozen must sent to me from the westcoast and I make meads from varietal honey. It is what I have to work with and it is what I am willing to afford on my budget. Would I enjoy having a press, destemmer, crusher and the whole nine yards... And while I am at it, money for the best grapes the west coast can make.. Of course I would.. But, I do what I can with what I got to work with. I have not used raisins in any of my grape wines because I do not feel they really belong. But I would not bash it until you try it at the least. Might be you could learn something?
BTW, I have an education too. Not in winemaking, but I have never felt the need to belittle people about them not having knowledge in my field. Usually, I approach with an open hand and I talk with them and try to get them to understand what I do.. But, scoffing at someone or a group of people because they do not understand why a positive coefficient of reactivity in a nuclear reactor is a bad thing and the ways to mitigate it is not really productive to my cause . Just as marginalizing home winemakers because some like to put raisins in their wine.
Honestly, I am pretty sure raisins and bananas and the such are more of a hold over in winemaking land from those who make fruit wines. Then, being primarily used to making fruit wines they try to apply the same technique to low end grape wines and or kits to try their luck at it. Like I said before, I would not do it to my own wine, but I would never think about bashing on someone for doing it. Honestly, it does not bother me all that much what someone decides to do with their own wine.. . And if it works for them... Then why not right?
I make white wine from juice, and I make red wine from frozen must sent to me from the westcoast and I make meads from varietal honey. It is what I have to work with and it is what I am willing to afford on my budget. Would I enjoy having a press, destemmer, crusher and the whole nine yards... And while I am at it, money for the best grapes the west coast can make.. Of course I would.. But, I do what I can with what I got to work with. I have not used raisins in any of my grape wines because I do not feel they really belong. But I would not bash it until you try it at the least. Might be you could learn something?
BTW, I have an education too. Not in winemaking, but I have never felt the need to belittle people about them not having knowledge in my field. Usually, I approach with an open hand and I talk with them and try to get them to understand what I do.. But, scoffing at someone or a group of people because they do not understand why a positive coefficient of reactivity in a nuclear reactor is a bad thing and the ways to mitigate it is not really productive to my cause . Just as marginalizing home winemakers because some like to put raisins in their wine.
Honestly, I am pretty sure raisins and bananas and the such are more of a hold over in winemaking land from those who make fruit wines. Then, being primarily used to making fruit wines they try to apply the same technique to low end grape wines and or kits to try their luck at it. Like I said before, I would not do it to my own wine, but I would never think about bashing on someone for doing it. Honestly, it does not bother me all that much what someone decides to do with their own wine.. . And if it works for them... Then why not right?
Look at beermaking today. Is a Redd's Apple Ale REALLY beer because it's not purist enough? Or an Orange Shandy? Maybe these should be BANNED because they ain't REALLY beer because of all those flavors????????????? Who in the h#ll cares???? They're damn good and that's all that counts. People's tastes in food and drink are much more eclectic today than they've ever been. I say "hurrah" to all the different offerings that seem "off the wall."
You should taste some of the wine we make from "inferior offerings" such as Niagara grapes which is one of the most put down grapes there is. Many call them inferior. Yet, I think you can have all the Merlot in the world because I don't favor that grape for lack of flavor. It's ALL subjective. Explain to me how 2 buck chuck won 1st place in a wine competition against $50.00 a bottle wines. Many wines made from so-called grapes of excellence just go right over my head and I have a very good pallete for tasting and nuances. A lot of what you're talking about is the snobbery that I hate about winemaking.
You should taste some of the wine we make from "inferior offerings" such as Niagara grapes which is one of the most put down grapes there is. Many call them inferior. Yet, I think you can have all the Merlot in the world because I don't favor that grape for lack of flavor. It's ALL subjective. Explain to me how 2 buck chuck won 1st place in a wine competition against $50.00 a bottle wines. Many wines made from so-called grapes of excellence just go right over my head and I have a very good pallete for tasting and nuances. A lot of what you're talking about is the snobbery that I hate about winemaking.
ShawnDTurner
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Mr. Renee.. let me first say welcome. I am excited to have you on this forum. You can provide us with your unique insights into styles trends and winemaking in general. I am sure there are a number of us that would love to send you a few bottles for your assessment. I believe this is an excellent opportunity for all parties to learn and grow in our passion for the vine. Again sir welcome!
