When to rack when not using clearing agents.

[kuziwk]

I'm doing a side by side experiment with the same ultra premium kit. One with degassing with a whip and full clearing agents, and one with no degassing and no clearing agents. Approximately how long will it take to clear?

My current cycle is as follows
-Degas and add clearing agents
-rack in three weeks
-rack in 2-3 months.

Should I follow the same when not using clearing agents? Or is 2-3 months too long for the second racking?

 

[crushday]

Very interested in this experiment. Looking forward to the results.

 

[kuziwk]

Very interested in this experiment. Looking forward to the results.

Yes I just need to know when to rack the one without the clearing agents. Does anyone have any suggestions? There is one minor problem though...the one with the clearing agents is several months ahead in the aging process...so this will need to be factored in while tasting.

 

[cmason1957]

I think once you are done with fermentation and rack off the gross lees, then rack every 3 months or so. I would not expect to bottle before the one year mark and possibly longer than that. You have to wait the Co2 out and get it out from racking. I suppose I am not for sure what you think you are trying to prove and what your hypothesis is. Will it clear by itself, I think we all know the answer, yes. Given enough time.

 

[tjgaul]

Being a moderately lazy winemaker, I tend to rack based on a combination of time and visual inspection. I do not use clearing agents anymore since even my whites tend to get 9 months or more in the carboy. After the first racking off the gross lees I go 3-4 months and even longer (can you say "procrastination"?) unless I see a decent accumulation of fine lees on the bottom. However, I am using the AIO pump and, thus, I am degassing along the way. 3rd and 4th rackings could go 5-6 months. I'm sure many would agree that this is too long.

I agree with cmason in that the key is to eventually get the CO2 out which will in most cases be highly correlated with the clearing process since the CO2 is primarily what maintains the bonds to support the suspended particulate. I would think that temperature would be a key factor since CO2 releases much easier at warmer temps. If the carboy is stored in a very cool location and not degassed I would expect clearing to take quite a while. Each racking would provide some opportunity for CO2 to escape. So if you want the wine to clear relatively quickly then rack every 2 months and keep it somewhere above 70 degrees, but then you need to monitor the SO2 levels to avoid excessive sulphites.

As far as taste goes . . . . if it's an ultra premium kit then it probably won't reach it's prime until 2 years anyhow and by then it will all taste the same. If you bottle at the one year mark and start drinking right away you might detect some difference, but I wouldn't expect a long term difference.

 

[salcoco]

racking every three months is the rule I would follow regardless of use of clearing agents. what is important is the so2 level at three months the so2 level is below 20ppm and racking with appropriate addition would put it back on track. degassing will help in clearing as well as temp.

 

[kuziwk]

I think once you are done with fermentation and rack off the gross lees, then rack every 3 months or so. I would not expect to bottle before the one year mark and possibly longer than that. You have to wait the Co2 out and get it out from racking. I suppose I am not for sure what you think you are trying to prove and what your hypothesis is. Will it clear by itself, I think we all know the answer, yes. Given enough time.

I'm looking to note differences if the clearing agents strip body, structure or flavor from the wine. To a lesser degree I'm also interested if degassing with a whip takes aroma from the wine, which I highly doubt but it will be hard to quantify since I was planning on not degassing anyways since it will sit.

 

[kuziwk]

Being a moderately lazy winemaker, I tend to rack based on a combination of time and visual inspection. I do not use clearing agents anymore since even my whites tend to get 9 months or more in the carboy. After the first racking off the gross lees I go 3-4 months and even longer (can you say "procrastination"?) unless I see a decent accumulation of fine lees on the bottom. However, I am using the AIO pump and, thus, I am degassing along the way. 3rd and 4th rackings could go 5-6 months. I'm sure many would agree that this is too long.

I agree with cmason in that the key is to eventually get the CO2 out which will in most cases be highly correlated with the clearing process since the CO2 is primarily what maintains the bonds to support the suspended particulate. I would think that temperature would be a key factor since CO2 releases much easier at warmer temps. If the carboy is stored in a very cool location and not degassed I would expect clearing to take quite a while. Each racking would provide some opportunity for CO2 to escape. So if you want the wine to clear relatively quickly then rack every 2 months and keep it somewhere above 70 degrees, but then you need to monitor the SO2 levels to avoid excessive sulphites.

As far as taste goes . . . . if it's an ultra premium kit then it probably won't reach it's prime until 2 years anyhow and by then it will all taste the same. If you bottle at the one year mark and start drinking right away you might detect some difference, but I wouldn't expect a long term difference.

Well I'm ok with degassing with my whip, so maybe I'll just do that to aid in clearing for this case. So I'm basically skipping racking after 3 weeks and leave it to three months? I'm looking to note any differences in taste, aroma, body ect. My hopes are that there will be none in a blind taste test. For the intent of the experiment I used the full clearing agents that the kit manufacturer directs to use. Typically I've been putting in on 50ml chitosin and 9ml kliesesol for clearing of my other wines which is less than 1/3 what they reccomend. The wines have been clearing they just take a bit longer.

 

[tjgaul]

Just to clarify my procedure, which is probably not the norm. When I rack out of primary, I go to a 6.5 gal carboy for a few days to confirm that fermentation is complete and to allow the gross lees to fall out. This was very useful for de-gassing with a wine whip as it allowed me to (mostly) avoid the volcano effect. Since I'm now using the AIO pump I am de-gassing at each transfer. I rack to a 6 gal carboy with tight headspace about 7-10 days later and then go 3-4 months to the next racking. I consider any movement during the first month to be part of the first racking. I will often see significant lees accumulation at the 2nd racking, but they will be tighter and less fluffy. The 3rd racking usually shows only a thin coating on the base of the carboy unless I've made additions along the way.

I concur with salcoco . . . standard racking and SO2 management calls for a 3 month schedule. I've been lucky and have gotten away with extending the timeframe. However, I monitor headspace and airlocks very regularly and I use CO2 to displace some air in the carboy.

 

[ratflinger]

My timelines are somewhat like tjgauls. I ferment to dry in the primary & then rack to a 6.5 carboy, where I add the sulphite. I use an electric drill with the stirring blades and run it on high for at least a full minute. (I do not use bentonite, or any clearing agents). The wine sits for at least 3 weeks then I rack to a 6 gal glass carboy, which i usually top off with marbles. It can sit in the glass for 3 weeks up to 3 months, depending upon my production schedule. I then rack through a gravity filter (1 micron) to 6 gal better bottles. Wine stays in the BB for at least 3 months. If it's table wine then it goes off into my kegs, topped off with argon, otherwise I bottle for 2-3 years of storage.