White Wines - Crisp taste

[Rocky]

Seems like a communications missfire.
Too bad , inferno sure seems to have strong technical chops .

I agree, manvsvine. It was an unfortunate event. I think Inferno would have been a great addtion to the forum for more traditional wine making input and experience. One of the problems with what we enter on the forum is that the "tone" can often be misunderstood or misinterpreted.

We have had this occur a couple of times of which I am aware and particularly with new members. It takes a short while to get to know some of the players and how they state things. I respectfully suggest that we should all more sensitive to new members.

 

[cdjohnston]

I would adjust the acid prior to fermentation. Use ONLY tartaric acid for pre-fermentation adjustments. Get your pH sub-3.2 and TA closer to 6.8 g/L - go much higher over 7 and you start to strip the enamel right off of your teeth (kidding)

After you cold stabilize the wine then adjust with Malic acid to desired TA. The computation for malic vs tartaric is different but not so much so that in homewine you will have to be too critical.

DO NOT use malic acid you buy in the store. that is M-Malic which, in fermentation tends to smell a lot like geraniums.

 

[manvsvine]

I've never read a publication or book that recommended the use of Malic acid for acid adjustment at any stage of grape wine making.
Pambianachi,morewine, cox, Warwick, UC Davis etc all recommend against adding any Malic , tartaric is used .

To use Malic would certainly increase sharpness but maybe too much . Malic would also greatly increase the risk of microbial instability as this additional Malic food source would increase the risk of an in bottle mlf occurring ruining the batch of wine.
Tartaric would be the industry standard for acid additions . One helpfull thing for us home winemakers is that if you made the wine too sharp with tartaric you could cold stabilize and drop some of the acidity . A great safety valve for us homies.

Does anyone have a source that recommends Malic additions ? Maybe I'm missing something , but I don't see risk vs reward paying off with Malic additions over tartaric acid additions.

Also my understanding is that geranium smell is produced when malolactic bacteria are exposed to sorbate , they metabolize some of the sorbate and produce the off geranium character.

 

[Turock]

manvsvine---I agree with what you just said there. I've never heard that adding malic is a good thing--never read such a thing either. Infact, I think I remember reading something one time, while I was doing some research, that malic is never used additionally in wine. After all,malic is such a harsh acid.

However, I do agree with CD to get the PH around 3.2 for a white. This is what we do with our Niagara and the crispness is just right at that PH.

 

[ibglowin]

I could see Malic being used in a "country wine" of sorts but never a grape wine.

 

[cdjohnston]

Hi guys! glad to see ya all chimed in. Just as an FYI malic is used commonly post-fermentation, just come on out to the Temecula Valley. Prior to STERILE filtering and bottling, malic is regularly used to adjust the final taste profile. It's stable and wont fall out as bitartrate.

But for Turock, you are correct - in the event of over-adjustment, a little cold-stabilization helps in final pH since when the KHT falls out, the pH will rise due to mass action. also additions of potassium carbonate can help - just make sure you do the cold stab to knock out all of the KHT.

And just because you can use malic, does not necessarily mean I do <grin>

 

[manvsvine]

I would NEVER add malic to a grape wine , too much potential downside. pretty hard to get a true sterile filter at home , and I'd rather not max out so2 and use lysozyme.

generally post ferment acid additions are really a tool of last resort .
winemakers should always try to make adjustments prior to pitching the yeast whenever possible.

adding acid post ferment is to dial it in if it didn't come in the right range after ferment. its a band aid . not something I'd intentionally plan on doing.

morewines white wine manual has some very good pratical advice on adjusting acid in a white wine.
3.2 is right at the low end of the 3.2 - 3.5 range that white wines are adjusted to.
I might go that low with a very aromatic white but for chardonnay I'd go at the 3.4 range. if the grapes naturally had a ph under 3.5 I would just leave it alone.

it may be very difficult to get a wine down to 3.2ph and keep your TA under 7 , so you might have to adjust your expectations or be prepared to have amuch higher ta

http://www.morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wwhiw.pdf

 

[Turock]

I absolutely agree with your statement about making all acid adjustment pre-ferment. We have never made adjustments in the post ferment and in all the years of winemaking we've never had many of the issues that are talked about so much in these forums.

The workhorse of winemaking happens at the primary. It's where you're designing the wine. And the adjustments made there get fully integrated into the wine, yielding much better results. I wish all new winemakers would buy themselves a PH meter, acids,calcium carbonate, tannin, and get used to making wine the correct way right from the start. I agree that acid adjustment post ferment is "error correction." Get it right at the primary and you won't be doing all these acrobatics in the post ferment.

We DO make a lot of fruit wines--and would never consider using malic acid additions. Most fruit is too acid---so we are correcting the PH with carbonate.

 

[ffemt128]

Still following all the interesting responses and will be referring back to this when my juice arrives.

 

[ffemt128]

I did adjust up the acid on these when the juice came in. Used only tartaric as was recommended. Last night, I decided to give the Sauv Blanc a small try. I have to say that I'm quite impressed at an early age at the difference in taste to past batches. Very good.

 

[manvsvine]

Great news , glad the tartaric worked out , sometimes standard practices are best practices.

keep us posted on how it comes out in the end.

 

[ffemt128]

Great news , glad the tartaric worked out , sometimes standard practices are best practices.

keep us posted on how it comes out in the end.

I will do that. Last weekend I racked off the heavy lees and gave a dose of K-meta. Both whites are clearing nicely at this point. I look forward to next sampling at the next racking.