Other Why are my kits sour tasting?

[Boatboy24]

I'm going to see if I got the timeline right regarding your barrel.

April 2013: California Grand Red (excellent)
Next ??: EP Amarone (light tart/sour)
??: EP Pinot Noir (more noticeable tart/sour)

Is that timeline right? If so, it sort of looks like the off-flavor is increasing with subsequent batches through the barrel. Have you run any more kits through the barrel since the EP Pinot Noir?

That timeline is right. I've had several more wines go through that barrel. Some with little to none sour/tart and some with a little more than that. None as bad as the Pinot, but all have it there to some degree. The fruit and/or oak seems to be lacking as well.

 

[Boatboy24]

I had a thought, maybe not a good one, but wanted to give you something more to think about. And anyone else who might have an opinion.

Could it be an astringency you are getting, more so than a sour/tart taste? Could it be your tannin additions causing this??

Don't take it as suggestion to not add tannin, but just a thought on my part.

I've thought about it being the tannin. But I would expect that to fade over time. I have wines that I did in 2012 and 2013 with the same tannin additions that don't have that profile. Or certainly not as much.

 

[wineinmd]

That timeline is right. I've had several more wines go through that barrel. Some with little to none sour/tart and some with a little more than that. None as bad as the Pinot, but all have it there to some degree. The fruit and/or oak seems to be lacking as well.

It sounds like the taste started with the EP Amarone kit. Did you do anything different to that wine that stands out? Did anything happen to the barrel between the Grand Red and Amarone batches? Time spent empty? Any unusual conditions?

Were the subsequent wines that went through the barrel from kits, from grapes, or some of each? If some of each, do you notice the taste more in one type vs. the other?

 

[markb1983]

Ok, not I am a little concerned. I have a Vadai barrel where I have only run kits through. Now, I ordered several juice buckets that have NOT gone through MLF. Currently, I have a cab fran made from a chilean juice bucket. My intention was to run the pinot through it after the cab franc. Am I ok to do this? Thoughts?

 

[ibglowin]

As long as the wine has not gone through MLF or been inoculated with MLB then you can mix Kit and fresh juice. Once you put a wine that has been exposed to MLB/MLF then you should stick to fresh grapes and or fresh juice in that barrel from then on. No more kits in that barrel.

 

[Boatboy24]

Ok, not I am a little concerned. I have a Vadai barrel where I have only run kits through. Now, I ordered several juice buckets that have NOT gone through MLF. Currently, I have a cab fran made from a chilean juice bucket. My intention was to run the pinot through it after the cab franc. Am I ok to do this? Thoughts?

I think you're OK, but you can't know 100% if there is no MLB in those juice buckets. I'd say odds are very slim though.

It sounds like the taste started with the EP Amarone kit. Did you do anything different to that wine that stands out? Did anything happen to the barrel between the Grand Red and Amarone batches? Time spent empty? Any unusual conditions?

Were the subsequent wines that went through the barrel from kits, from grapes, or some of each? If some of each, do you notice the taste more in one type vs. the other?

I haven't done anything differently that stands out. No unusal conditions, no empty time. I moved last month, but I won't see any impact from that for some time - those wines aren't even bottled yet. My kit barrel is for kits only - no juice or grape wines have ever been in it.

On the bright side, I tried some of my 2014 Tempranillo Garnacha last night. It was one that had tasted sour to me the last time I opened it. It was pretty darn good. I gave a few bottles to a friend last week and got feedback on one of them over the weekend. He said it was really good and would buy it from a store in a heartbeat. Who knows - maybe it is nothing at all and just something in my head.

 

[markb1983]

I have not added any MLF. What is the probability the manufacturer would? Is that common if frozen juice must?

 

[Boatboy24]

I have not added any MLF. What is the probability the manufacturer would? Is that common if frozen juice must?

If it was there, it would be because it occurred naturally.

 

[markb1983]

Ok i doubt it, i should be in luck. Hey Boatboy, do you have access to showcase series? I think they are by far better tasting than eclipse.

 

[wineinmd]

I haven't done anything differently that stands out. No unusal conditions, no empty time. I moved last month, but I won't see any impact from that for some time - those wines aren't even bottled yet. My kit barrel is for kits only - no juice or grape wines have ever been in it.

On the bright side, I tried some of my 2014 Tempranillo Garnacha last night. It was one that had tasted sour to me the last time I opened it. It was pretty darn good. I gave a few bottles to a friend last week and got feedback on one of them over the weekend. He said it was really good and would buy it from a store in a heartbeat. Who knows - maybe it is nothing at all and just something in my head.

That's a good sign that one of the sour tasting ones has improved. Perhaps there is something in very small quantities in certain kits that you are very sensitive to that takes a while to age out? Is there a particular brand that the taste is more noticeable in? Have you made any of the same kits twice?

Dumb thought, but had you been sick or been in any sort of unusual environmental conditions (recent exposure to anything airborne, just got done cleaning with bleach, tasted in a musty basement?) prior to tasting the sour taste? I know when I'm sick, things tend to get a metallic taste to them.

I'm running out of variables!

 

[the_rayway]

No laughing, but I had an issue not too long ago where all of my wines were tasting off. Turns out it was my toothpaste. We had changed brands and it had a lingering nasty taste that made everything taste very weird for almost two months.

Any chance?

 

[seth8530]

I am not sure if you ruled it out yet, but as was mentioned earlier, excess tannin can come off for being overly astringent, which I could see being misconstrued as tart/sour.

 

[Boatboy24]

No laughing, but I had an issue not too long ago where all of my wines were tasting off. Turns out it was my toothpaste. We had changed brands and it had a lingering nasty taste that made everything taste very weird for almost two months.

Any chance?

I usually try not to drink wine immediately after brushing.

I'm starting to think it is tannin and/or my perception of tannin. This issue seems to be more prevalent in my younger wines (though some of them aren't all that young), making me think the older ones have just had time for the tannin to mellow. I think I'll be a little more judicious with the tannin additions on the next few batches and see where that leads me. One thing I'm NOT doing on my batches from grapes is adding tannin. And they don't have this flavor. So maybe that's it. Anyone have thoughts on the shelf life of the stuff? Maybe I'm just dealing with a batch that's too old.

 

[stickman]

A few of the tannin data sheets indicate a shelf life of 5yrs unopened, not sure once opened. Acidity, CO2, and tannin, definitely exaggerate each other causing tart, harshness, astringency, and even bitterness. The manufacturers promise the world with all of the potential benefits and many products to choose from, and for the winemaker, it seems to be mostly trial and error to see what works and every vintage is different. Wine rich in color, in general, can handle or benefit from more tannin. Be careful using tannin in light colored more delicate wines.