Cellar Craft Wine Kit taste, take 2

[RJB]

I posted this on a previous thread, hoping for some feedback. I got one informed comment, but then that thread lost its way, so will post again. Here goes:

"Yesterday, being Mum's day, I opened two bottles of CC Classique reds I had bottled in Aug 2010 ("Global Cuvee Merlot"), Sept 2010 (Cal.Rsv Pinot Noir). These were the first wine kits I ever made, $60 cheapies. ....
That said, the metallic taste that I have noticed before had all but gone from the Merlot, and it was actually an ok table wine. The Pinot still had a metallic tang to it, but after I left the bottle open for a few hours it seemed like the tang had largely gone.

So... can you wiser folks briefly explain what is the chemistry here? Is something evaporating? or is a chemical reaction happening in the wine?"
.....

Is this characteristic of CC kits?
Has anyone else noticed the metallic taste? or is this simply my own body chemistry?
And can anyone add to Mike's earlier comments?
thanks in advance
Bob

 

[diggerdan17]

I have a few wines that taste much better after a few hours and I believe this to be from some CO2 that I didn't get out properly during the degassing stage.

It seems to me that the slight gassiness gives it a bit of a metallic tang. at least thats my take on it.

I will quite often drink 2 glasses out of a bottle and then put a vacuvin wine saver on the bottle and come back the next day or two later and the wine has tasted much better.


Digger

 

[wineh]

Sorry about that

As I was one of the people who got it off track, I will try to be a little more helpful. Wine is a funny thing and tastes different to different people, so I suspect you may be on the right track with "its not you, its me" line of thinking. While I generally only make 6 week kits, I have heard and read about the "thin" reference to 4 week kits, and I think that's a reference to being less of a full varietal flavor, and I have enjoyed others' wines made from the smaller kits. I'm not actually sure what "kit taste" is, but I know that I will sometimes open a bottle of wine a little early and after the first smell or taste, just simply say to myself "this one ain't done yet". Typically that "taste" goes away after some additional aging.

 

[mmadmikes1]

I have always heard kit taste was a residual sweetness, often referred to as Jolly Rancher taste. The metallic taste is probably co2 and that is why it dissipates. I have made several wine kit as of late because of economic reasons and this last one, after it was finished and dry I added turbo yeast to it to see if this stuff could get rest of sugars out. I will get back to you on that in 6 months

 

[ibglowin]

The smaller kits have much less TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) Its those solids that make a wine full of flavor and not "thin" tasting. They can still be enjoyed and many people don't particularly like big "chewy" wines and thats what makes wine enjoyable to so many of us. Something for everybody can be had (usually).

Another possible source of the mysterious KT is the Sorbate which is included in every Kit. Sorbate is a second cousin to Sorbitol which is the sweetener used in many brands o chewing gum (Hmmmmmm.......)

They have the same formula sans 4 Oxygen molecules and 7 Hydrogen atoms and of course the Potassium ion which dissociates immediately upon adding into a liquid.

Your taste buds may very but I don't use it unless I back sweeten a wine and have residual sugar.

 

[mmadmikes1]

The smaller kits have much less TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) Its those solids that make a wine full of flavor and not "thin" tasting. They can still be enjoyed and many people don't particularly like big "chewy" wines and thats what makes wine enjoyable to so many of us. Something for everybody can be had (usually).

Another possible source of the mysterious KT is the Sorbate which is included in every Kit. Sorbate is a second cousin to Sorbitol which is the sweetener used in many brands o chewing gum (Hmmmmmm.......)

They have the same formula sans 4 Oxygen molecules and 7 Hydrogen atoms and of course the Potassium ion which dissociates immediately upon adding into a liquid.

Your taste buds may very but I don't use it unless I back sweeten a wine and have residual sugar.

Here Here. I can taste sorbate and seldom use it.

 

[RJB]

IIRC, the purpose of Potassium Sorbate is to cause fermentation to cease. If you omit it, what stops the fermentation? Does the yeast die of old age, does it eventually poison itself, or do you add something else in place of the Sorbate?

inquiring minds...

 

[ibglowin]

Not exactly right. Potassium sorbate will render any surviving yeast incapable of multiplying. Anything that is "alive" when added will continue to be able to ferment any residual sugars. They just can't reproduce in the presence of Sorbate.

 

[RJB]

Right, that's what i read, but without the sorbate what stops the fermentation? Does the entire fermentation process simply come to an end? How long does that take?
What I am getting at is, if I decide not to use the sorbate, what changes should I make to the process?
Bob

 

[ibglowin]

Yes, when they run out of food they will start to die off over time. But as we all know yeast are pretty incredible creatures and can sit out in the real world for fantastic lengths of time w/o any food whatsoever. Give them a source of food and away they will go doing their thing.

If you want to stop using sorbate make sure the wine is completely dry. 0.998 or less. No back sweetening obviously. Use good sanitizing practices and proper amounts of SO2 and your good to go.

 

[mmadmikes1]

Only thing stopping fermentation is lack of food or Alcohol poisoning, Sorbate is a preventative measure. Like was posted above, if you dont back sweeten and allow enough time, you don't need it. It is put in kits because they are designed to be done fast, Bottled fast, and drank early. If you are adding a F-Pak(like some kits have) you need it

 

[RJB]

F-Pak?? is that what CC refers to as a Flavour Reserve Pack? IIRC my Viognier kit had one of those.

 

[ibglowin]

Yes! It has sugar (syrup) in it so you should always use the Sorbate if you add the Flavour Reserve Pack.

 

[jelina]

the metallic taste that I have noticed before had all but gone from the Merlot, and it was actually an ok table wine. The Pinot still had a metallic tang to it, but after I left the bottle open for a few hours it seemed like the tang had largely gone. Wine is a funny thing and tastes different to different people, so I suspect you may be on the right track with "its not you, its me" line of thinking. While I generally only make 6 week kits, I have heard and read about the "thin" reference to 4 week kits, and I think that's a reference to being less of a full varietal flavor, and I have enjoyed others' wines made from the smaller kits.

 

[robie]

I would guess that what you are experiencing is CO2. Maybe without knowing it, you did a better job of degassing the other kit you made. Also, there are a lot of factors that determine how much CO2 will be in one wine, versus another.

Those smaller, less expensive kits tend to be ready to drink much sooner than the bigger kits, which have more TDS. As Mike wrote, it is the TDS (and more/better acid structure) that causes a bigger, richer kit to taste more tart at first and causes them to take longer to mature.

A smaller red kit made last September should be pretty drinkable by now. As mentioned, sorbate could be a possibility, but I would suspect CO2, especially since aerating seemed to help. After aerating, the aroma would also have gotten better.

 

[RJB]

Thanks guys, it is the CO2. If i decant the cheaper wines and let em sit awhile they are quite drinkable. Not great, but not bad either. I have greater hopes for my Showcase kits, but as noted, they will take longer to mature.
Bob

 

[rhattin]

Acid drop out

I have just experienced two of my cellar craft limited editions reds display acid drop out crystals. I expect this with whites and they show a more rounded taste as sell as a smoothness. With the two reds - Temperanillo and Rossa Fortisssimo's the drop out is a surprise to me.
Anybody else have a similar experience???
Ric
Seabright NS

 

[ajhughes]

While I am no expert, it's my experience that red wines will drop wine diamonds or crystals like whites will, if not cold stabilized. I have cold stabilized reds in the past. The difference is generally red's are not chilled long enough for diamonds to drop, so cold stabilization is not generally necessary. Though I have heard of them dropping on well aged wines.

Did you store these reds at colder temperatures after bottling?

 

[robie]

While I am no expert, it's my experience that red wines will drop wine diamonds or crystals like whites will, if not cold stabilized. I have cold stabilized reds in the past. The difference is generally red's are not chilled long enough for diamonds to drop, so cold stabilization is not generally necessary. Though I have heard of them dropping on well aged wines.

Did you store these reds at colder temperatures after bottling?

This is even more so if the red is a high quality one, like a rich RJ Spagnol En Primier red. If you can, I would always cold stabilize such wines. I do mine in the winter out in the garage; I just bulk age until it gets cold enough.

 

[Runningwolf]

I cold stabilize in a freezer and CS both red and whites. My wife likes to chill everything so the diamonds do show up. My wine has also dropped diamonds in the wine cellar at 65*.