Winemaking for Church

[fatherrob]

Good afternoon,

My name is Robert Lyons. I am looking to get into winemaking for a very specific purpose - I desire to make wine that is conformable to what would have been used during the time of Christ. In other words, no added ingredients! (I am not so concerned about method as I am about what is used in the wine.)

I am looking this summer to begin a small garden of grapevines for use in this purpose. My main use will be to create wine for Church. Anthing beyond that will be a bonus.

I look forward to learning more on this site.

Rob+

 

[robie]

Welcome to the forum.

Sounds like what you are wanting to do is eliminate things like added sulfites and sorbate. I have never studied the techniques utilized back then and am only guessing. You will need to do some study on your own for best answers.

In my opinion, back then the main reason chemicals were not added is likely becasue they didn't know about them and didn't have them. I would guess that if these chemicals had been available, they would certainly have been welcomed. I suspect spoilage was a big factor back then.

Sorbate is only necessary if you intend to sweetening the wine. I would suspect that wine back in biblical days was dry, since sugar was hard to come by and stopping fermentation, in order to leave the wine sweet, might not have been an option. Although I guess they could have utilized honey or some other organic sweetener. If your wine is to be dry, sorbate will not be necessary.

Sulfutes are added to wine mainly to protect it from things like bacteria and oxidation. Most commercial and almost all homemade wine has sulfites added. For most of us, it is pretty much considered a requirement. All wine has some sulfites already, due to the fermentation process, itself. There are wineries that do make wine without adding additional sulfites; this is especially true for organic wines. In order to eliminate bacteria exposure, a lot of care must be taken to make sure all the equipment is thoroughly sanitized, if not fully sterilized. Though not impossible, this is very, very difficult to achieve in a home wine-making environment (non-controlled environment).

If I were you, I'd study up on "no sulfite added" or "sulfite-free" wines.

There are other chemicals that one can add to assist in clearing the wine, but these are mostly optional and primarily utilized to speed up the clearing process.

On this forum, it is pretty much standard procedure to recommend sulfites be added.

Good luck and let us know how things turn out.

 

[Deezil]

Welcome to the forum!

If you have any questions, feel free to ask
I've gotta warn you, there are a few of us who've gravitated towards a less/no chemicals approach, and we each vary a little bit it seems in which chemicals are accepted and which arent..

Some are anti k-meta
Some are anti sorbate
I dont think anyone is anti pectic enzyme, but could be wrong

All make good wine

 

[GrandpasFootsteps]

I'll let the experts advise you on the recipes. If you really want to make a wine comparable to those made in the time and era of Jesus... Fill your carboy with water then pray. If all goes well, you should have Jesus-esque wine shortly with very little effort.

On a more serious note, I was thinking of doing wine for church as well and I ran into some legal challenges. I'm in Texas. It is against the law for me to take my wine to church and also a violation to serve it there. I do this for parties regardless but when I talked with my church council about it they were great with the idea of drinking my wine but they said that bringing it into the church and serving it is a bigger issue than just bringing it to a personal party. It was decided not to willfully violate the TABC (Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission) and ATF regulations within the church. Liability at the church is a big thing.

 

[Midwest Vintner]

It was decided not to willfully violate the TABC (Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission) and ATF regulations within the church.

I'm not sure why, if it is commissioned by the church, that it isn't protected by the 1st amendment? I could see that maybe if it was a dry county? Not sure how the ATF regulates the church, though.

 

[fatherrob]

Good morning, everyone, and thanks for the responses so far.

I tried the water in a bucket thing, but I guess the water filter in my fridge is just too good! LOL!

In reading about winemaking, I have read that you cannot use store-bought grapes, because they are irradiated and won't properly ferment.

My first step, therefore, is to plant some grapes in my yard and get them growing. I realize it takes a few years for the vines to begin producing fruit, so I have no illusions that this is going to start in a week or two. I suppose the first thing I need to do is learn how to be a husbandman.

We live just south of Indianapolis, and our favorite wines are Catawaba and Muscat, so we are thinking of looking towards those two types of grapes, with, perhaps, concord as well.

Rob+

 

[DoctorCAD]

If you have been researching winemaking, then you must have come across the fact that there are literally thousands of types of prepared juice that you could be fermenting "in a week or two" as you put it.

Getting your feet wet with a kit wine or a juice wine will give you the knowledge that you seek as to making "additive-free" wine in the future.

I am currently making 5 gallons of Muscat for the ladies in my neighborhood (they love it with chopped up strawberries in the glass) that I got as a concentrate. It only takes 3 months to finish and one more month of sitting to become drinkable. The only ingredients are the concentrate, water, sugar and yeast. Its a great way to get into wine making...

 

[Bartman]

I would point out that wine in the first century was generally not aged for years, but was probably drunk within 6 months to a year of fermenting (the original purpose of fermenting was as a means of preserving the fresh fruit for consumption well after harvest time, until the next harvest). Consequently, adding sulfites is less critical if you will be fermenting it to 'dry' and drinking in 6 to 12 months - the naturally-occurring sulfites and alcohol in the wine will probably keep it stable during that short time. Oxidizing (which meta-bisulfite helps prevent) will be the greatest threat, I would think - get it bottled fairly soon after fermenting so its exposure to air is limited.

 

[fatherrob]

Hrm, perhaps... before investing in the grapes, I should do one of the mail order juices to see if I can produce a drinkable wine... I hadn't really thought about that, as I was thinking as much about the big picture perspective of planting and tending vines...

I would imagine I'd have a pretty short shelf life on wine. I'd ideally get a freezer, and then store the juice in workable amounts (1-2 bottles at a time). We use about 1 bottle of wine per month at Church, so I don't need a ton on hand. Of course, I still have a lot to learn about winemaking, so I am not sure that's the best way to approach the matter, but it would seem to work better on the spoilage end.

Rob+

 

[SLOweather]

I also recommend the kit wine approach to feet-wetting. As rank newbies, we've planted grapes this spring, made our first kit, and taken delivery of the next kit.

Kits give you a head start on some of the techniques, terminologies, and equipment you will need. Then during your local harvest, you could buy some grapes from a vineyard for more learning and experience.

I guess my back-up point is that it would be a shame to get to your first harvest of your own grapes, and mess it up because of lack of experience, you didn't have the techniques down, or were missing an important piece of equipment.

 

[shoebiedoo]

I agree with the others. You can make some great wines from kit's and still keep most of the chemicals out. Juice buckets would be another source. you can call around to various produce company's to see if there's juice available in your area. I would consider the use of sulfite though or you'll be throwing more away that you would like to. time takes care of all the rest.

 

[GrandpasFootsteps]

I'm not sure why, if it is commissioned by the church, that it isn't protected by the 1st amendment? I could see that maybe if it was a dry county? Not sure how the ATF regulates the church, though.

I just threw in the ATF because they were concerned about that too. The TABC regulates the homebrew in Texas. No one can "commission" a homemade wine in Texas since a homebrew person can't sell their wine without a license. The TABC regulations give a limit on how many gallons of wine I can make a year (200 gallons) and where that wine can go. According to the rules, the wine may only leave my property for the purpose of an organized tasting, evaluation, competition, or literary review.

The organized tasting must not be open to the public (our church is open to the public) and the literary reviewer must be "published".

If you allow me to drink your wine, I will say here on this forum that it is delicious and thus my literary review is officially published.

 

[Duster]

Rob, Welcome to WTC.
I don't know how often you get north but I am located in the Wawasee area.
I am not an expert by any means when it comes to organic wines however I can help out with general practice of wine making. I often have something or several somethings working so if you ever head this way look me up, I'll be glad to share some knowledge first hand.

 

[fatherrob]

No one can "commission" a homemade wine in Texas since a homebrew person can't sell their wine without a license. The TABC regulations give a limit on how many gallons of wine I can make a year (200 gallons) and where that wine can go. According to the rules, the wine may only leave my property for the purpose of an organized tasting, evaluation, competition, or literary review.

Well, I long ago realized the First Amendment means nothing anymore, but even during prohibition there was an exception for Sacramental wines.

Of course, I have a solution...

Have the Church plant some vines, harvest them, and make the wine on site. It never leaves the property that way!

Of course, you might have to change your Church's name to Grapevine Church, but hey, at least your opening song could be a resounding choral rendition of "I Heard It Through The Grapevine" featuring the California Raisins!

Rob+

 

[fatherrob]

Rob, Welcome to WTC.
I don't know how often you get north but I am located in the Wawasee area.
I am not an expert by any means when it comes to organic wines however I can help out with general practice of wine making. I often have something or several somethings working so if you ever head this way look me up, I'll be glad to share some knowledge first hand.

Actually, we were going to come up that way for our vacation this year, but all the places we wanted to stay were booked, so now we are going to Kentucky. That being said, my wife has family in southern Michigan, and we head up that way from time to time. I might sometime be able to arrange a stop-in for a while. Not sure when we are heading up next, but when I figger it out, I'll be sure to keep you in mind!

Rob+

 

[Midwest Vintner]

Well, I long ago realized the First Amendment means nothing anymore
Rob+

It is sad. If drinking is legal, federally, then there should be no way to not allow a religious organization to NOT use an alcoholic beverage, IMO. Especially one that has been around for more than a couple of years. lol. It's not like the are waiting for a comet and going to kill themselves!

I would also agree that the church should just grow their own and make it on site. Historically, monks/pastors/religious leaders have been some of the better wine makers and are responsible for a lot of the basic knowledge because they typically could read/write and took notes, etc.

 

[jswordy]

fatherrob: If you can get by the un-wine-related - uhhhh - material in it, there is a wealth of information in this thread pertaining to what you want to do...

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f5/old-italian-red-wine-recipe-15762/index2.html

BigBend, who has the answers and experience, will still respond to PMs, too...

UNDER EDIT: Just stop reading that thread when you get to my post about reviving an old thread. There is no more wine info after that point.

 

[g8keeper]

fatherrob: If you can get by the un-wine-related - uhhhh - material in it, there is a wealth of information in this thread pertaining to what you want to do...

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f5/old-italian-red-wine-recipe-15762/index2.html

BigBend, who has the answers and experience, will still respond to PMs, too...

UNDER EDIT: Just stop reading that thread when you get to my post about reviving an old thread. There is no more wine info after that point.

jim, is this the infamous thread that i am thinking of???....

 

[saramc]

storage

Hrm, perhaps... before investing in the grapes, I should do one of the mail order juices to see if I can produce a drinkable wine... I hadn't really thought about that, as I was thinking as much about the big picture perspective of planting and tending vines...

I would imagine I'd have a pretty short shelf life on wine. I'd ideally get a freezer, and then store the juice in workable amounts (1-2 bottles at a time). We use about 1 bottle of wine per month at Church, so I don't need a ton on hand. Of course, I still have a lot to learn about winemaking, so I am not sure that's the best way to approach the matter, but it would seem to work better on the spoilage end.

Rob+

fatherrob,
Welcome to the forum! If you are able to work things out for the winemaking for your church and do continue with the winemaking adventure here are a few things to consider:
1. You could contact area wineries, which in your area you have quite a handful, and ask about purchasing x-amount of grapes for winemaking. Or they may even be willing to sell you x-amount gallon of fresh pressed juice during harvest. That way you would not have to worry about waiting the three years before your grapes are ready to harvest, assuming all goes well in the vineyard.
2. You mention you only use one bottle per month. You could bottle your wine using the "bag in the box method" which holds almost 1.5 gallons per container and is vacuum sealed, dispensed via a spigot similar to a gallon suntea jar, and they keep for at least 6 months once opened. Dispense the wine into an actual bottle at each service and you are good to go. Or bottle in 187ml bottles.

Best of luck to you.
Sara

I wasn't aware that churches actually served wine with alcohol in them any longer. Every church in my area uses juice.