WM81 Fall 2022 Experiments

[winemaker81]

For those not familiar with H2S, when under stress (for things such as not enough necessary nutrients) most wine yeast will produce hydrogen sulfide. H2S REALLY stinks, like swamp gas or dog farts -- the smell is unmistakable. The side effect is that mercaptans are formed. These produce a nasty flavor and smell, and do not go away.

If caught early, H2S can be driven off by very vigorous stirring and a double or triple dose of K-meta. If not caught early, it may be necessary to treat the wine with copper. The old treatment was to pour the wine over clean copper pennies (in the USA, pennies minted before 1982), but that leaches an unknown amount of copper into the wine, which can be poisonous. Currently the recommended treatment is products like Reduless, which add a measured amount of copper to the wine. Follow this with fining to precipitate copper compounds.

Mercaptans are treated with ascorbic acid. Note that this is a strong acid and should be used sparingly, as it can make the wine very sharp. In a situation a couple of years ago, it took 6 months total to treat the wine with stirring, K-meta, Reduless, and ascorbic acid. It worked, the wine was saved, but it was a nervous time.

 

[David Violante]

Bryan, thank you for this experience. I have a bunch of RC212 in the fridge and have been using it in the last number of ferments especially because it has worked so well with the FWK I’ve done. I’ve also used Goferm, Fermaid O and K, and if needed DAP. So far so good, knock on wood. Just thought I would throw out another side of the fence. That being said I’m not opposed to change either, and moving to some newer yeasts might just be progress in the making. I appreciate hearing about your experience and that of our colleagues here. Back to the mind numbing myriad of yeasts chart... LOL

 

[winemaker81]

David, your response is one of the main reasons I post. I get a lot from other people's experiences, both positive and negative. While my hope here was to report only good things, teaching others a method of handling H2S and hopefully avoiding it in the future is worth the effort.

Although I fully admit I'd rather read about someone else's experience with H2S instead of doing it myself!

I'm going to bin my last package of RC-212. Unless I make a white kit or a fruit wine, I may not ferment anything until next fall, so I have time to figure out what yeasts I'll use next time.

 

[winemaker81]

I performed the evening punch down and decided to check SG. I inoculated Sunday at noon, so I've had 3 full days of fermentation at this point. We plan to press over the weekend, and I want to give my son warning ahead of time. I measured the following:

Grenache 1 (RC-212) -- 1.010
Grenache 2 (Avante) -- 1.025
Tempranillo 1 (RC-212) -- 1.025
Tempranillo 2 (Avante) -- 1.010

Wow. This is fast fermentation, but I used 3 packages of RC-212 for these batches, and 5 tsp Avante. I measured the RC-212 at 1.5 tsp per package, and rounded up for the Avante. In hindsight, I probably could have used 2 packages RC-212 and 3 tsp Avante for these. With a 20 hour starter, the initial colony took off.

THIS may be a cause of the H2S -- not enough resources for too much yeast. I'll estimate better next time.

G2 and T1 may be fermented out by Friday, and it's possible that G1 and T2 will be done by tomorrow (Thursday) night. I had hoped to press on Sunday, but am considering Saturday. I don't like letting the wine set too long once fermentation is done.

The SG for the smaller (1 lug) batches is:

Petite Sirah -- 1.020
Syrah -- 1.018
Mourvedre -- 1.008

I planned a 1 week EM for these, planning to press a week from Sunday. So I did a final punch down and wiped the inside of the fermenters with a K-meta soaked paper towel to remove residue. Then I sealed the fermenters.

Following is a picture of the PS and M in the test jar, illustrating the colors. The M picture is a bit blurry, but should show enough.

 

[winemaker81]

BTW -- any time I make a FWK, I'll use the included yeast, including RC-212. I figure FWK has the nutrient figured out.

I have 2 Tavola Merlot kits in the fridge, waiting for the pomace from the Grenache and Tempranillo. Since these kits come with RC-212, I figure I'll have no problems as both pomaces will contain both RC-212 and Avante.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the 2 Merlot differ as a result of having different pomaces added.

Although I considered splitting the PS/S/M pomace between the two, I suspect that after a week of EM, there will be less "oomph" left in them. Plus having that common denominator added to the wines is likely to skew my experiment.

 

[CDrew]

Edit: It looks like all those old recommendations are gone, so there's room for a new sticky!

So this was not correct. The old recommendations are still there. It's almost laughable in light of the discussion here since Steve recommends RC-212 as first choice for practically every red wine. So I nominate @winemaker81 to redo the sticky!

And just to be clear, I completely disagree with the existing "sticky"

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/how-to-select-a-yeast-for-your-must.12160/

 

[winemaker81]

This morning my wife commented that the stench was gone (she hates the smell of fermentation). I thought this was odd, as I can certainly smell fermentation, and her nose is far better than mine. All batches are nearing their end so the aroma wafting upstairs is less, but it's noticeable to me.

We discussed it, and it became clear she could smell the H2S long before I could! Wow! [She's not into winemaking and is not much of a wine drinker, other than a few crisp, dry whites.]

The great news is that she can't smell H2S, so it looks like I caught it early enough and and handled it. YAYYY!!

Next season I'm going to rent her out at reasonable prices as a H2S detector! Extra cash to pay for more grapes!!

Seriously, I've been paranoid about H2S and a few times I thought I could smell it, but a repeat sniff got nothing. Psychosomatic, I think. Well I hoped! Mrs WM81 has made me feel relieved!

I don't know about a sticky for WMT, but I'll probably write a post for my site, describing my experiences.

 

[vinny]

I'm going to bin my last package of RC-212. Unless I make a white kit or a fruit wine, I may not ferment anything until next fall, so I have time to figure out what yeasts I'll use next time.

Uhhhmm.. I just bought 10 packets on your recommendation...

I'm not regretting it. My plan is to add it to my Vineco kits. I am planning to add additional nutrient and others have substituted it without additional nutrients or issues to report.

I had one kit that included EC-1118 and K1-V1116. Would it be a good idea to add in some EC-1118 with the RC-212? Will that effect the flavors that I am aiming to develop with RC-212?

It is my feeling that the risk presented with RC-212 and raw juice would be significantly reduced using a kit juice. With a little extra care I shouldn't have an issue. I just want to make sure I have a solid strategy before I start.

 

[winemaker81]

Uhhhmm.. I just bought 10 packets on your recommendation...

well ... dang!

I mentioned up stream that future FWK that come will RC-212 will use the yeast, as the kit is balanced for it. If folks were getting H2S with FWK, we'd know about it. Actually, I've not heard of anyone getting H2S in a kit, but most kits include EC-1118, so that's not surprising.

RC-212 produces great results. In my situation, a brush with H2S scared the heck out of me, hence my reaction.

If it were me, for non-FWK that include EC-1118 I'd figure out how much nutrient would be required overall, and add 1/4 to 1/3 of that amount after 48 hours / SG reaches ~1.060.

In your case, I'd not add the EC-1118, as it's a robust yeast and appears likely to dominate, which makes adding another yeast pointless.

I'll not use a high nutrient requirement yeast for fresh grapes again. As with @CDrew, my risk tolerance in that area is low. For non-FWK wines, I'd use Avante, as I have a quarter kilo remaining.

 

[vinny]

I'd figure out how much nutrient would be required overall,

Like I said, I don't think I will have the same concerns as you do with grapes. The kit will be fortified to some degree, adding more is just to play it safe.

How does one assess required nutrient? I have only made kits and followed recipes so far. No math required on my part, to date.

 

[winemaker81]

How does one assess required nutrient? I have only made kits and followed recipes so far.

Some of the formulas are very complicated. I like this one because it's simple and easy to understand.


Seriously, I read the nutrient package. If it says 1/2 tsp per gallon, that's what I use. For a 23 liter kit, that's 3 tsp nutrient, so one-third is 1 tsp.

 

[vinny]

Some of the formulas are very complicated. I like this one because it's simple and easy to understand.View attachment 94045


Seriously, I read the nutrient package. If it says 1/2 tsp per gallon, that's what I use. For a 23 liter kit, that's 3 tsp nutrient, so one-third is 1 tsp.

Nice, I was thinking with different requirements for different yeasts I might need to do some thinking. I can handle reading a package!

 

[winemaker81]

Nice, I was thinking with different requirements for different yeasts I might need to do some thinking. I can handle reading a package!

In the past, by luck or whatever, I've used low and medium nutrient yeasts, and never had a problem. This has been an eye-opener.

At this point I'm considering going with package directions for a medium nutrient yeast, and probably low nutrient. For high nutrient yeasts like RC-212, I'd go 25% higher.

As I have said, I learn something new every week on this forum.

 

[She’sgonnakillme]

I have been using BM4X4, D254, Avante and Pasteur Red yeasts as substitutes for the provided RC212 in all the FWK's. After making 20+ FWK's I felt like I needed a new flavor profile and not the same yeast every time. I have used the provided nutrients with each of them and have yet to run into any trouble. H2S is not a smell you want to ever run across though that's for sure.

 

[winemaker81]

The nice thing about FWK reds is that since the nutrient is set for RC-212, it's sufficient for any yeast I can think of.

Unfortunately @vinny can't get them in Canada. I assume that LP would need to build a facility in Canada, as the shipping time is critical on these kits and anything going across the border will get delayed.

 

[winemaker81]

My son and I pressed the Grenache and Tempranillo today. It went well, nothing out of the ordinary. We grossed 20.5 US gallons of Grenache and 18.5 US gallons of Tempranillo.

We also started 2 FWK Tavola Merlot, adding the pomace from Grenache to one and from Tempranillo to the other. This should be an interesting experiment.

After discussion, we used none of the additives from the kits. Packet A contains K-meta, and since we should get active fermentation from the yeast present in the pomace, that's out. We don't need Packet B for the same reason. There's not a lot of need to use Packet C., and since we're making a dry red, Packet D is useless to us.

Instead we added Fermax to the kits. It's supposed to be 1 tsp / US gallon, so 6 tsp. Since the pomace contains both RC-212 and Avante, we upped the nutrient to 8 tsp, adding 5 tsp today and will add 3 tsp in 48 hours -- assuming the ferment takes off as expected.

I put the packets in the drawer for the first couple of non-FWK wines either of us makes.

Next Sunday we'll press the kits, and the Syrah, Petite Sirah, and Mourvedre, which are currently in a short EM.

 

[winemaker81]

Since I need the 23 liter carboys for the wines we press tonight, I racked the Grenache and Tempranillo off the gross lees. Normally I'd not rack this early, but I wasn't thinking about secondary container usage last Sunday.

After racking I have 18 gallons of Tempranillo and 20.5 gallons of Grenache. I'll lose a bit more volume to fine lees, but these are a good take.

After racking I poured the loose sludge from each batch into 1.5 liter wine bottles and put them in the fridge. Here is the "before" picture of the Tempranillo:



The Grenache looks the same, except it's far lighter in color. I'll post "after" pictures in a week or two.

 

[winemaker81]

We pressed today:

Syrah / Petite Sirah / Mourvedre, 12 day ferment, EM since last Thursday. We grossed 9 gallons. Note that we pressed the grapes dry, leaving nothing behind. The pomace was suitable for building houses. This will produce a heavier wine -- from previous experience 9 to 12 months will soften it. This wine will be used to blend into the Grenache and Tempranillo.

FWK Merlot / Grenache pomace. Adding 23 liters of kit to the pomace from 8 lugs makes a VERY thick mess that is hard to punch down. Assuming this works out, I'd do it again with the pomace of 8 lugs. We grossed 9 gallons of wine, so we got 3 gallons from the pomace.

FWK Merlot / Tempranillo pomace. Did the same with the Tempranillo pomace, netting 8 gallons.

I expect that using kits instead of sugar water to produce a second run from the pomace will produce very good results. The initial taste at pressing is nice, for the age of the wine.

 

[winemaker81]

Saturday was a busy day. We racked the 2021 Rhone Blend that has been in barrel since February. This included all but the last couple of bottles-worth in the barrel, two 4 liter jugs of topup, plus a few smaller bottles. The remainder in the barrel went into a 19 liter carboy, then we filled it from the homogenized wine. After the pumping started we added kieselsol from a kit, and at the 3/4 mark we added the chitosan. This wine will set for 2 to 4 weeks (schedule dependent), and then we'll bottle it. The idea is to see how much sediment drops from a "clear" wine, and how much the K&C affects the aroma and/or flavor.

The remainder of the wine (11.5 US gallons) was treated with 1/2 tsp K-meta and 8 oz glycerin. We bottled, netting 57.5 bottles. Then we power washed the barrel (inside and out), added 1/2 lb Oxyfresh BarrelClean, and filled it with cool water. It sat for 4 hours while we were doing other things.

We repeated the process for the Super Tuscan, including treating 19 liters with K&C.

Next we racked and homogenized the Mourvedre/Petite Sirah/Syrah blend (Rhone Blend). There was not as much sediment as I expected.

We taste everything as we go. Nope -- not "drinking", but a couple of oz (between the two of us). We tried the Grenache and really liked it. I've never had a straight Grenache before, and it's light in color but still has body and a long aftertaste. In contrast, the Rhone blend was in our faces, strong tannin and body, but the finish died quickly. Disappointing.

So I eyeballed an 80/20 blend (meaning I didn't measure, I decided it looked like a 80/20 blend) with the Grenache and Rhone Blend. The Grenache is on the left, Rhone Blend on the right, the mix of the two in the middle.



Holy. Freaking. Cow.

It combined the best of both. Lots of oomph up front, followed by a long Grenache aftertaste. These wines are 3 weeks old so most of the story is yet to be written, but there's no surprise why GSM is popular.

We racked and homogenized the FWK Tavola Merlot fermented with the pomace of 8 lugs of Grenache. Based upon volume (9 US gallons), it's 2/3 Merlot, 1/3 Grenache. Unfortunately, it's thin. I expected more from it, and bulk aging for 6 months may produce a difference. The jury is out.

We ran out of time and steam to rack/homogenize the FWK Tavola Merlot fermented with the pomace of 8 lugs of Tempranillo.

 

[winemaker81]

The glass in the middle (last post) is from the 1989 Pittsburgh AWS Conference. I have 4 or 5 of the glasses remaining (out of 9?).