WTB Spring Season Honey

[seth8530]

For the scale that you are working on, I think I would recomend that you stick to a single batch instead of splitting it into a bunch of small batch. It can be quite chaotic trying to keep track of all those different nutrient schedules all at once... Plus, the yield from those small carboys will be hit pretty bad by racking losses.

 

[Jimyson]

Not sure I'm sold on that idea with the wine. Maybe the mead will be (2) three gallon batches but I am so interested in using the honey alone, some with agave, etc.

The tracking doesn't concern me. I'm a project manager by trade and documentation, process (once I sort and understand it), isn't an issue.

Now, the racking losses, yeah, I can see that as being a bit of an issue. But when the purpose of all this is to see the results of various steps/ingredients changes, would it be that much of a concern? The sum of all losses by means of a large batch wouldn't be that much different from the individual losses by individual batches. Sure it may be a bit more but I am more of the all in experimental type of personality. Plus, my time of aging for this will be filled with many batches of beer and likely some full batches with a basic process once I see some of the initial results from the experiments.

Come on. Sell me more. It's fantastic to see all viewpoints.

 

[seth8530]

Perhaps splitting batches may not be such a bad idea if what you are really wanting to do is just to figure out how all these guys turn out differently. However, if you are trying to get a good understanding of how everything fundementally works and how certain changes create different outcomes I might advice that you make you ( at least first) limit your changes to ones that are linked to the fundamental relationship between the yeast and the honey.

Ie, try warm vs cold ferment,

Nutrient schedule vs no nutrient schedule

yeast strain vs yeast strain.

honey strain vs honey strain

I feel like these kind of experiments are more likely to better inform you and give you a better understanding of what the mead is actually doing than say comparing mead with spice vs mead with no spice..

However, these are my personal opinions ( being a cross between a scientist and an engineer.... gotta love grad school) and I tend to like to do the best I can to have a fundamental understanding of what is going on.

 

[Deezil]

You'll also want to realize that smaller batches are actually more difficult to ferment cleanly. There's less room for error, and it's harder to cover up flaws.

And unless you've got racking down, and are putting that sediment to the side to recover that lost mead, you can have substantially larger losses racking multiple smaller batches than racking one larger batch. The racking cane leaves behind a certain amount of wine when you rack, just because of the design, so even though the vessels are smaller, the losses can still be greater.

I would ferment the honey as one batch, 15lbs should get you 5 gallons; and the agave for another batch. I'd pick the same yeast for both batches the first time, if you're more interested in fruits and spices. You don't want to change too many variables at once if you're looking to compare them. Ferment them down as bigger batches, then split and add the fruits and spices in secondary fermentation. Then age them out, before you worry about blending anything, age them out for 12-18 months.

You can still end up with a large variety of different final products, but without all the risks.

 

[Jimyson]

Perhaps splitting batches may not be such a bad idea if what you are really wanting to do is just to figure out how all these guys turn out differently. However, if you are trying to get a good understanding of how everything fundementally works and how certain changes create different outcomes I might advice that you make you ( at least first) limit your changes to ones that are linked to the fundamental relationship between the yeast and the honey.

I would ferment the honey as one batch, 15lbs should get you 5 gallons; and the agave for another batch. I'd pick the same yeast for both batches the first time, if you're more interested in fruits and spices. You don't want to change too many variables at once if you're looking to compare them.

Ok so I guess I do have 2 different motives here and need to separate. Let's talk about the wine first. I really want to try between 2 different strains of yeast. I am always doing that with beer and would love to see what each one comes out with so I can understand which one I would like to move forward with on a consistent basis for common batches. I have the RP15 and the WLP750. I don't see a whole lot of reviews on the WLP750 so I am extremely interested to see the result. I'm pretty set on dong at least one split for the yeasties.

Now, the splitting of each yeast batch so I can use different tannins, that is merely the lack of experience and afraid to commit a whole batch to one versus the other. The two as mentioned are FT Rouge and FT Rouge Soft. I can't seem to find enough detail/reviews to understand what the difference may be. Am I wasting my time doing that split?

On to the mead and/or Agave. My main goal was to do the Agave Mead. Half and Half. Again, the lack of experience is making me concerned about putting 12 lbs of each in a batch and have it taste like ****. I also would like to see what the Agave on it's own would turn out to and the same goes for the honey. Do a simple batch of each. So, what I gather from Deezil is that I may be best off to do separate batches and just combine once bulk aged.

I feel like these kind of experiments are more likely to better inform you and give you a better understanding of what the mead is actually doing than say comparing mead with spice vs mead with no spice..

Ferment them down as bigger batches, then split and add the fruits and spices in secondary fermentation. Then age them out, before you worry about blending anything, age them out for 12-18 months.

Ok, now this makes sense. My inexperience is leading me down the patch of wanting to see what things do. I think you guys are successfully steering me away from splitting too much.

You'll also want to realize that smaller batches are actually more difficult to ferment cleanly. There's less room for error, and it's harder to cover up flaws.

Please explain. I understand there is less room for error as you are working with smaller units and by adjusting levels of things at that small a quantity can make a larger impact on the percentage of additions. But that's what calibrated digital scales and measurements are for. What else is prohibiting from fermenting cleanly?

And unless you've got racking down, and are putting that sediment to the side to recover that lost mead, you can have substantially larger losses racking multiple smaller batches than racking one larger batch. The racking cane leaves behind a certain amount of wine when you rack, just because of the design, so even though the vessels are smaller, the losses can still be greater.

Ok, so yes, an auto siphon will likely leave more volume of liquid behind because of design. But on transfer from my keg fermented and 5/6 gallon carboys, I use a standard racking cane through a carboy cap (carboy) or spending valve assembly (for the keg) and have CO2 attached so I essentially push the liquid up the cane via forced pressure around 3-5 psi. Creating something similar with a bung, then taking it slow and tilting the small vessel to gather some of the liquid wouldn't loose all that much.

I also purge everything with CO2 one each side during racking so that I minimize oxygen exposure. This along with some sanitization care, and TIME, should make for easy clearing via primary to secondary to bulk.

I get it though, yes, more of a PITA.

With all of this said, once I hear back on the tannins from the wine portion, I am pretty well set on splitting at least 2 ways for the wine kit.

The mead and agave, I think you guys have me convinced to do their own single batch and think a lot harder about if anything should change in secondary or just wait until after bulk for blending of simple batches.

 

[Deezil]

Ok so I guess I do have 2 different motives here and need to separate. Let's talk about the wine first. I really want to try between 2 different strains of yeast. I am always doing that with beer and would love to see what each one comes out with so I can understand which one I would like to move forward with on a consistent basis for common batches. I have the RP15 and the WLP750. I don't see a whole lot of reviews on the WLP750 so I am extremely interested to see the result. I'm pretty set on dong at least one split for the yeasties.

Now, the splitting of each yeast batch so I can use different tannins, that is merely the lack of experience and afraid to commit a whole batch to one versus the other. The two as mentioned are FT Rouge and FT Rouge Soft. I can't seem to find enough detail/reviews to understand what the difference may be. Am I wasting my time doing that split?

So if I'm reading this right, you want to split the wine kit into 4:

RP15 + FT Rouge
RP15 + FT Rouge Soft
WLP750 + FT Rouge
WLP750 + FT Rouge Soft

That doesnt sound impossible, but if it's a 6-gallon kit, just understand that that means it's going to be ~1.5 gallons of 'must', which is gonna probably leave you with just over a gallon each, by the time its all said and done.. 6-7 bottles, per.

The difficulty with this comes with trying to bulk age these small oddball sized batches long enough to get them cleared, so you can bottle them.

The information I have on the FT Rouge and FT Rouge Soft products isn't much more detailed than what you've probably already read. My approach was to use the FT Rouge Soft for a few seasons, making everything I normally make, and then I'll be switching to FT Rouge, to make my own comparison. I'll be able to offer insight eventually, but the best way to find out is to do something similar to what you're planning (I just usually work on a larger scale, lol; but thats just me)

On to the mead and/or Agave. My main goal was to do the Agave Mead. Half and Half. Again, the lack of experience is making me concerned about putting 12 lbs of each in a batch and have it taste like ****. I also would like to see what the Agave on it's own would turn out to and the same goes for the honey. Do a simple batch of each. So, what I gather from Deezil is that I may be best off to do separate batches and just combine once bulk aged.

I'd recommend doing it how I mentioned, simply because there's no way to know if 50-50 mead to agave is going to be the best flavor profile; but if you ferment them separately, you can do some bench trials to figure out the best ratio of mead : agave for your tastes.

You may very well like 25% agave to 75% mead, for example (or any other ratio), but if you combine on the front-end there's little you can do to change those ratios later. You'll also be able to set some of each the agave and mead ferments aside to see how they age alongside the blended version. This will teach you more than front-loading it.

After you've gone through the process of making this agave-mead, then you can later on, blend the two together on the front-end, based on your favored blend and make a second batch with the insight you've gained from this experiment. That way, the 2nd batch will only require minor tweaks to get it where you want it instead of having multiple gallons of a 50-50 batch, that you don't really care for.

Please explain. I understand there is less room for error as you are working with smaller units and by adjusting levels of things at that small a quantity can make a larger impact on the percentage of additions. But that's what calibrated digital scales and measurements are for. What else is prohibiting from fermenting cleanly?

Mostly, it's the fermentation time. If you have a smaller-than 5-gallon batch, and you pitch a whole packet of yeast, it's going to ferment faster than a larger batch would with that same yeast packet. This can catch people off guard, and you can very easily miss the nutrient additions involved with a staggered nutrient protocol. If you're doing this with yeasts you aren't familiar with, or if they're heavy feeders, you raise the potential of missing those nutrient benchmarks, and that yeast is going to create H2S at the very least. It may get stuck, it may create other off odors and flavors that you cant really fix easily.

Then you're stuck with one of the experimental variables full of flaws, and it would skew the whole experience.

Ok, so yes, an auto siphon will likely leave more volume of liquid behind because of design. But on transfer from my keg fermented and 5/6 gallon carboys, I use a standard racking cane through a carboy cap (carboy) or spending valve assembly (for the keg) and have CO2 attached so I essentially push the liquid up the cane via forced pressure around 3-5 psi. Creating something similar with a bung, then taking it slow and tilting the small vessel to gather some of the liquid wouldn't loose all that much.

I also purge everything with CO2 one each side during racking so that I minimize oxygen exposure. This along with some sanitization care, and TIME, should make for easy clearing via primary to secondary to bulk.

I get it though, yes, more of a PITA.

The racking losses really occur when folks try to separate the sediment out. Most, when going for that really clear finished product, end up stopping the siphon before even the slightest traces go up the racking can. Usually closer to the bulk aging than the fermentation end of things.

Due to the design of the racking cane, with the tip on the end, this can leave anything from a pint to a quart behind. If folks do this a few times, because they thought the wine/mead was clear but it dropped more sediment again, the losses add up.

The fix to this, is to still rack in that fashion, but take what's left in the bottom of the carboy, and isolate it into a quart jar or wine bottle and let the sediment settle all over again. From there you can pour off the wine when it clears, either into another catch jar or into the wine/mead it came from, depending both on where you're at in the process (if you see another sediment racking coming or not) and how clear that isolated tidbit is itself.

 

[Jimyson]

So if I'm reading this right, you want to split the wine kit into 4:

RP15 + FT Rouge
RP15 + FT Rouge Soft
WLP750 + FT Rouge
WLP750 + FT Rouge Soft

That doesnt sound impossible, but if it's a 6-gallon kit, just understand that that means it's going to be ~1.5 gallons of 'must', which is gonna probably leave you with just over a gallon each, by the time its all said and done.. 6-7 bottles, per.

The difficulty with this comes with trying to bulk age these small oddball sized batches long enough to get them cleared, so you can bottle them.

Exactly what I want to do. Talk to me about clearing issues in small quantities. I'm so used to the yeast being fairly good at flocculating over time and clearing beer on its own and then a cold crash prior to bottling. Obviously I need to read up a bit more on this topic.

I'm not worried about the output on this batch as much as I am about getting a reasonable yield and learning more in the short term about the yeast and tannins.

I'd recommend doing it how I mentioned, simply because there's no way to know if 50-50 mead to agave is going to be the best flavor profile; but if you ferment them separately, you can do some bench trials to figure out the best ratio of mead : agave for your tastes.

Done!

Mostly, it's the fermentation time. If you have a smaller-than 5-gallon batch, and you pitch a whole packet of yeast, it's going to ferment faster than a larger batch would with that same yeast packet. This can catch people off guard, and you can very easily miss the nutrient additions involved with a staggered nutrient protocol. If you're doing this with yeasts you aren't familiar with, or if they're heavy feeders, you raise the potential of missing those nutrient benchmarks, and that yeast is going to create H2S at the very least. It may get stuck, it may create other off odors and flavors that you cant really fix easily.

Luckily, I work from home and my brew area is about 30' from my desk. I can easily keep an eye on it and monitor. For the wine, I need to open and mix often during fermentation so it's really easy to pull a drop and pop it on the refractometer.

I was also thinking about the yeast and splitting. For the mead/agave, not a topic of discussion anymore but I get it. For the wine, I will be splitting each yeast so my plan was to make a starter in a beaker, mix well prior to pitch to get all the yeast in suspension, and put half in one bucket and so on.

The fix to this, is to still rack in that fashion, but take what's left in the bottom of the carboy, and isolate it into a quart jar or wine bottle and let the sediment settle all over again. From there you can pour off the wine when it clears, either into another catch jar or into the wine/mead it came from, depending both on where you're at in the process (if you see another sediment racking coming or not) and how clear that isolated tidbit is itself.

Yeah, I need to put some thought into this.

Have my hands full now. Newest brewmaster born yesterday afternoon! Back to the fam.

 

[Deezil]

Your yeast distribution idea sounds like it'll do the trick.

But refractometers become inaccurate in the presence of alcohol, so once fermentation starts you'll have to use a hydrometer to gauge the progress. Not much harder than a refractometer though.

 

[Jimyson]

That's what they make refractometer calculators for! I use BrixCalc on my iOS devices or Brewers Friend calculator if on my laptop. Seems to be accurate enough for my needs. Have you done side by side comparisons that provide more concrete results of inaccuracies if using a refractometer calculator vs hydrometer?

 

[Deezil]

Yeah there's a scale of adjustments out there, I just don't have it handy. But it does require adjusting to remaining accurate due to the presence of alcohol

 

[Jimyson]

Yep, this is what I use. They seem to be the most accurate for my needs. Plus I love only using a few drops vs a tube full, especially with multiple small batches.

 

[seth8530]

Looks like we are having fun here....

 

[Jimyson]

Interesting evolution of the original topic, yes?

 

[RegarRenill]

Congrats on your new family member

 

[Jimyson]

Congrats on your new family member

Thanks RR! He's been great!

 

[Jimyson]

On its way. 1.092 with D47. 6 gallon batch.

 

[Jimyson]

Moved it into secondary last night. It's starting to clear as of this morning.