Yeast Rehydration is good stuff

[Ohio Bob]

I wasn't clear -- I mean that we make a starter (100 to 240 ml), let it run over night, then how do we check the SG/Brix in so small a sample?

If we use a larger starter, we need to use correspondingly more yeast.

I understand now.

Perhaps it’s not important what the ABV is in the starter as long as the Brix continues to go down. Just use the Brix as a proxy measure of yeast growth.

Conversely, you could divide a packet of yeast into several smaller amounts and scale down the water and sugar as well. I would include a control lot with just yeast and water, no sugar, so the effects of the yeast on light refraction can be inferred.

I have numerous packets of EC1118 that were included with kits or juice buckets. If it wasn’t grass cutting season I would be totally all over this experiment.

 

[Ohio Bob]

So here is some research behind the issue...

https://www.researchgate.net/public...dubG9hZCIsInByZXZpb3VzUGFnZSI6Il9kaXJlY3QifX0

I just pulled it and have not read it, just glanced at the pretty picture. I think the interaction between sugar content in the starter and the time until pitching will be important.

 

[wineview]

I currently add a LOT more sugar than that.

I've been updating my yeast starter post, and am currently up to 2 to 6 Tbsp sugar. I'm probably going to change that to 5 to 6 Tbsp, and that's for a starter that runs 12 to 14 hours.

The FWK Packet B is mostly sugar, and it's a goodly amount. However, last I recall FWK recommends a 24 hour period, so more sugar makes sense.

Is it “mostly” sugar or “all” sugar. I thought it was all sugar. If not, what else would have been added to packet B?

 

[winemaker81]

Is it “mostly” sugar or “all” sugar. I thought it was all sugar. If not, what else would have been added to packet B?

IIRC, there is nutrient in the mix. But I'm not positive.

 

[wineview]

IIRC, there is nutrient in the mix. But I'm not positive.

I have extra packets. I was going to use one for a starter tonight. It weighs 55g. That’s a lot of sugar. I also us Go-Ferm in all my starters. Because we don’t know the exact contents, should I skip the packet and use my own 5 or six teaspoons of sugar with Go-Ferm?

 

[winemaker81]

I have extra packets. I was going to use one for a starter tonight. It weighs 55g. That’s a lot of sugar. I also us Go-Ferm in all my starters. Because we don’t know the exact contents, should I skip the packet and use my own 5 or six teaspoons of sugar with Go-Ferm?

I don't believe adding GoFerm to a FWK Packet B will cause any harm. The duration of the starter is short, and excess nutrient will thereafter be blended in 23 liters, very diluted.

 

[wineview]

I don't believe adding GoFerm to a FWK Packet B will cause any harm. The duration of the starter is short, and excess nutrient will thereafter be blended in 23 liters, very diluted.

I always wondered if too much sugar in a starter is bad for yeast health. Maybe I’m overthinking it.

 

[winemaker81]

I always wondered if too much sugar in a starter is bad for yeast health. Maybe I’m overthinking it.

Funny, @Ohio Bob and I had that conversation a while back. He pointed out that yeast can be overwhelmed by too much sugar, so there may be a problem if the starter's sugar produces too high brix.

I don't expect to start another batch until October, and plan to put together starters with varying amounts of sugar and test the brix.

If you open a Packet B, do you have a scale to weigh it? We know the FWK Packet B is not too much sugar for a starter, and knowing the grams can be useful.

 

[wineview]

Funny, @Ohio Bob and I had that conversation a while back. He pointed out that yeast can be overwhelmed by too much sugar, so there may be a problem if the starter's sugar produces too high brix.

I don't expect to start another batch until October, and plan to put together starters with varying amounts of sugar and test the brix.

If you open a Packet B, do you have a scale to weigh it? We know the FWK Packet B is not too much sugar for a starter, and knowing the grams can be useful.

It’s 55g.

 

[Ohio Bob]

Because we don’t know the exact contents, should I skip the packet and use my own 5 or six teaspoons of sugar with Go-Ferm?

I would not skip the packet. The kit has been formulated for success. Besides, the packet has already been paid for.

 

[wineview]

I would not skip the packet. The kit has been formulated for success. Besides, the packet has already been paid for.

Maybe I wasn’t clear. I am making a Winexpert Private Reserve Colosso kit. They do not include such packets but I thought I would use it to start my yeast since I have 15 or so on my drawer.

 

[winemaker81]

Maybe I wasn’t clear. I am making a Winexpert Private Reserve Colosso kit. They do not include such packets but I thought I would use it to start my yeast since I have 15 or so on my drawer.

Ya got 'em, so use 'em.

---

Bob, I did the math:

55 g = 1.94 oz of sugar. There are online calculators for just about everything!

Since 16 oz sugar in 1 US gallon produces SG 1.045, 1 oz in 1 cup water produces the same SG (8 oz is 1/16 of 128).

So 1.94 oz sugar in 8 oz water produces SG ~1.087. If we assume some nutrient in the FWK Packet B the SG is probably above 1.080,.

An online converter says 2 oz sugar = 4.5 Tbsp. I'd round that down to 4 Tbsp for a starter, which according to my calculations produces SG 1.078.

Note that my calculations should be considered approximate, as they assume the online calculators are strictly correct, human measurement error will occur, and in winemaking the reality of a situation often differs a bit from the expected outcome. But 4 to 4.5 Tbsp sugar in 1 US cup of water produces a good SG that will keep the yeast alive for the 12-24 hours that a starter will work prior to inoculation.


EDIT: I updated my yeast starter post, updating the amount of sugar to 4 to 4.5 Tbsp sugar, and explained the calculation.

EDIT 2: Based upon @TCPT18 subsequent post, we know Packet B is just sugar, so adding some type of starter nutrient is a good idea.

 

[TCPT18]

Because we don’t know the exact contents, should I skip the packet and use my own 5 or six teaspoons of sugar with Go-Ferm?

iI asked label peelers for the addative contents:

their response

FWK packet content

Thank you for your FWK order. The Chips are American Medium and the Cubes are French Medium. Packet A is Pectic Enzyme and Yeast Nutrient (DAP and Food Grade Urea) and Acid Blend. Packet B is Cane Sugar for Yeast Starter. Packet C is second dose of Yeast Nutrient. Packet D is Potassium Metabisulphite and Potassium Sorbate. Your right on with your PH and Acidity. It sounds like you definitely know what you are doing.


Unlike a normal pasteurized kit, you can in fact use MLF with these kits.


hope this helps

 

[wineview]

iI asked label peelers for the addative contents:

their response

FWK packet content

Thank you for your FWK order. The Chips are American Medium and the Cubes are French Medium. Packet A is Pectic Enzyme and Yeast Nutrient (DAP and Food Grade Urea) and Acid Blend. Packet B is Cane Sugar for Yeast Starter. Packet C is second dose of Yeast Nutrient. Packet D is Potassium Metabisulphite and Potassium Sorbate. Your right on with your PH and Acidity. It sounds like you definitely know what you are doing.


Unlike a normal pasteurized kit, you can in fact use MLF with these kits.


hope this helps

All correct. I contacted Label Peelers and got the same information.

 

[Gritch]

When making a starter...how long till pitching it in the juice is the sweet spot?

 

[wineview]

I made my starter at 6pm and pitched it at 7 am the next morning. It smelled wonderful and had a nice frothy top. Short answer, IMO is 12- 15 hours

 

[AFW]

I just sprinkle the yeast on my must and leave it alone. Takes off slowly yes but by 3 rd day going vigorously. Haven’t had a stuck fermentation yet. I haven’t heard of GoFerm, starters or inoculation before not knocking these just showing my age

 

[wineview]

I just sprinkle the yeast on my must and leave it alone. Takes off slowly yes but by 3 rd day going vigorously. Haven’t had a stuck fermentation yet. I haven’t heard of GoFerm, starters or inoculation before not knocking these just showing my age

Do you add any type of nutrient when SG is reduced by 40-50% to help the yeast finish the job in a healthy environment?

 

[AFW]

No additional nutrients added. I will add my experience so far is with Wine Expert and juice buckets. I am going to do whole grapes this fall so my process might need to change. Reading now and taking on line course from wine maker magazine soon.

 

[winemaker81]

No additional nutrients added. I will add my experience so far is with Wine Expert and juice buckets. I am going to do whole grapes this fall so my process might need to change. Reading now and taking on line course from wine maker magazine soon.

Consider doing 2/3 of the nutrient at inoculation and the remaining 1/3 at 1/3 depletion, e.g., if the OG was 1.090, add the remaining nutrient at roughly 1.060.