15 month dilemma

[SeniorHobby]

Hello Fellow Wine Makers:
Beginneer Wine Maker here. I read a very brief book on wine making about 5 years ago, realized it was more time than what I had to invest with working full time. I decided to wait till retirement to try again. After retiring I threw a wild grape wine together in the fall of 2020. It was done without any adjustments for pH, acid or anything else. Basically just the grapes, sugar & yeast. I have it chillin in my garage at about 33 degrees at this time, wondering if it is an ok wine or whether to throw it out. I taste a very strong flavor, not knowing if this flavor is oxidation or just the strong acids that a wild grape wine is known for. Upon doing a bunch of reading I now know a little more about pH, acids and basic ways to start a wine. I was ready to throw this wine out knowing that it needed more adjustments when I started it.
Currently my wine has a .994 sg, pH of 3.22, TA of 71%.
I had a fellow WMT member do a taste test on this wine. Here is the result.

taste evaluation, the front flavor is acid, there is a very sharp note at 10 to 15 seconds > at 30 seconds an astringent flavor is noted (alum dehydrating character) and this hangs in the mouth for a few minutes, ,,, it also has skin/ tannic flavor which I have had when steeping concord like a vinifera grape (but not when pressed concord is fermented). ,,,, there were no off flavors as acetaldehyde or bacterial infection (your fermenting technique is good).

I am looking for suggestions for finishing this wine.

Thanks!

 

[ChuckD]

I can’t help addressing the taste adjustments but I have some thoughts.

The taster said your technique was good and didn’t mention oxidation so you should be good there. And it’s cold stabilizing now so that could help drop some excess acid.

I remember you from my wild grape thread a while back. I added water and sugar to mine so the “problems” aren’t identical , but similar. Too sharp and a strong foxy smell. My plan is to make what improvements I can with oak and aging. After that I hope to be able to use it for blending with elderberry wine.

Maybe someone else has adjustments they can recommend. Otherwise I would let it age and look for opportunities to blend it with a low acid wine.

Oh, and I see the wine is dry. I would take a Sample and sweeten it a little to see if that helps.

 

[SeniorHobby]

I can’t help addressing the taste adjustments but I have some thoughts.

The taster said your technique was good and didn’t mention oxidation so you should be good there. And it’s cold stabilizing now so that could help drop some excess acid.

I remember you from my wild grape thread a while back. I added water and sugar to mine so the “problems” aren’t identical , but similar. Too sharp and a strong foxy smell. My plan is to make what improvements I can with oak and aging. After that I hope to be able to use it for blending with elderberry wine.

Maybe someone else has adjustments they can recommend. Otherwise I would let it age and look for opportunities to blend it with a low acid wine.

Oh, and I see the wine is dry. I would take a Sample and sweeten it a little to see if that helps.

I have taken a glass and added some sugar, it is drinkable in my mind but still is a little astringent probably because of the high acidity. I didn't know what oxidized wine tastes like so I was thinking that it might be that. I'm very glad that it is still salvageable, just not sure what to do. I will see what the general consensus is and then do some bench trials on the sugar addition. I think it might lose a little acidity once bottled so really don't want to over sweeten. What's your thoughts on adding a frozen fruit concentrate at this point? I've never done that yet; not even sure if it is something that is done. If so, what flavor?

 

[VinesnBines]

My first suggestion is to add oak. I would try that before adding sugar or other fruit concentrate. Oak comes in many forms. Oak chips are the cheapest and quickest. I would try medium toast French chips at the rate of 1 or 2 ounces per gallon. Give it a few weeks and see if that helps.

 

[Denden5136]

Oak can impart nice additional flavors to wine, but can generate bitter tastes from ellagitannins. It does not contribute significantly to astringency. Since you mention it is already tasting a bit acidic, I would suggest going easy on the oak at first and taste after a few weeks (tasting is always fun anyway, right?).

 

[SeniorHobby]

My first suggestion is to add oak. I would try that before adding sugar or other fruit concentrate. Oak comes in many forms. Oak chips are the cheapest and quickest. I would try medium toast French chips at the rate of 1 or 2 ounces per gallon. Give it a few weeks and see if that helps.

Oak can impart nice additional flavors to wine, but can generate bitter tastes from ellagitannins. It does not contribute significantly to astringency. Since you mention it is already tasting a bit acidic, I would suggest going easy on the oak at first and taste after a few weeks (tasting is always fun anyway, right?).

Thanks VinesnBines!
I will! First I need to get the oak chips at home. I haven't done any adding of oak yet so that will be an interesting thing to try.

 

[SeniorHobby]

Oak can impart nice additional flavors to wine, but can generate bitter tastes from ellagitannins. It does not contribute significantly to astringency. Since you mention it is already tasting a bit acidic, I would suggest going easy on the oak at first and taste after a few weeks (tasting is always fun anyway, right?).

Thanks Denden5136!
I will do that, might just pull off a gallon or two and try different amounts.

 

[Denden5136]

Thanks Denden5136!
I will do that, might just pull off a gallon or two and try different amounts.

Sounds fun. I love to experiment - try different amounts and see what happens!

 

[ChuckD]

Messed this one up

 

[ChuckD]

Basically just the grapes, sugar & yeast.

I’m curious. How many gallons of wine did you make? And is it all wild grape juice? I used 5 lbs of berries per gallon which was on the high end of the sources I found.

 

[Sailor323]

Astringency and acidity are not the same thing. You can have either one without the other. Wild American grapes (and their domestic varieties like Concord) are quite high in acidity. This is a case where MLF might be beneficial. Otherwise, a judicious use of KCHO3 might be helpful. As for astringency, wild grapes have a very high ratio of skins and seeds to juice which results in a high content of tannin to the wine. Oak might help smooth this out and age will definitely help.

 

[Rice_Guy]

* astringent is a dehydrating feeling on the tongue and roof of the mouth. In judge training they had us rejuvenate the mouth by eating a low fat sandwich meat which would bind up tannins. The folks running taste panels mixed up alum as a reference standard for astringent (don’t know how many ppm)
* acidic is a response of the taste buds, a simple way to separate the flavors is to take your sample the next time you run a TA to pH 8.2 with a pH meter to taste it. (Do not do this with a phenothalein indicator— it is a laxative and may have preservatives in it)
* alcohol is a reduced compound which readily combines with oxygen. In a water environment it produces acetaldehyde. Acetaldehyde is recognized above 100 ppm, at low levels is described as “apple”. Low levels are present in wine and add complexity which is OK, high levels are objectionable and I describe it as a burn in the back of the throat when swallowing. If you want to experience acetaldehyde you can fill a jelly jar half full of wine put the lid on => then taste it every month, oxidation will increase with time but is a slow reaction as weeks/ you won’t detect it before and after racking. A little head space oxygen doesn’t matter, again the threshold is 100ppm. Acetaldehyde will not form in a juice which does not have alcohol in it/ has not fermented.

I have taken a glass and added some sugar, it is drinkable in my mind but still is a little astringent probably because of the high acidity. I didn't know what oxidized wine tastes like so I was thinking that it might be that. I'm very glad that it is still salvageable, just not sure what to do. I will see what the general consensus is and then do some bench trials on the sugar addition. I think it might lose a little acidity once bottled so really don't want to over sweeten. What's your thoughts on adding a frozen fruit concentrate at this point? I've never done that yet; not even sure if it is something that is done. If so, what flavor?

A lot of kit wines have F pak which is flavor and sugar, adding frozen concentrate is an easy way to copy what flavored wine kits do, ,,, BUT add sorbate whenever you are three month old like a kit. Bench trials (N drops added in a glass) are useful to see if it helps.

 

[SeniorHobby]

Astringency and acidity are not the same thing. You can have either one without the other. Wild American grapes (and their domestic varieties like Concord) are quite high in acidity. This is a case where MLF might be beneficial. Otherwise, a judicious use of KCHO3 might be helpful. As for astringency, wild grapes have a very high ratio of skins and seeds to juice which results in a high content of tannin to the wine. Oak might help smooth this out and age will definitely help.

Thanks Sailor323,
I think I will try the oak chips. I might break it down into groups to try different treatments. What would you recommend for an amount of KCHO3 per gallon?

 

[SeniorHobby]

I’m curious. How many gallons of wine did you make? And is it all wild grape juice? I used 5 lbs of berries per gallon which was on the high end of the sources I found.

I have about 6 gallons and when I started it I believe that I was on the high end, maybe 5 lbs or a little over of berries per gallon. I thought at the time that with more berries that I would have more flavor. Just pure wild grape wine made with the berries in a straining bag.

 

[ChuckD]

I have about 6 gallons and when I started it I believe that I was on the high end, maybe 5 lbs or a little over of berries per gallon.

So we are in the same boat with the wild grape. Mine is only a few months old though. I’m going to be racking it this weekend and putting it in the cellar with an oak spiral for three months before another tasting.

 

[winemaker81]

If the acidity problem is tartaric acid, test it by putting 1 gallon in the fridge for 2 weeks. If the tartaric is high, it will drop crystals -- rack when cold and taste test.

Calcium carbonate can be used to reduce acid, but use it sparingly. I'd add 1/4 the amount calculated, let the wine rest 2 or 4 weeks before tasting. Repeat if needed.

It may need more sugar than has been tried. A high acid wine balances with a lot of sugar -- I've tasted wines that I figured were going to be syrup, but tasted quite good. Bench test with 4 oz glasses of wine and 2:1 sugar syrup dispensed with a medicine syringe.

Another option is to blend with a commercial wine, e.g., box or jug wine. There's no need to do anything to the batch as a whole -- if you find a solution, it can be implemented on a glass-by-glass basis.

Also keep in mind that high acid wine makes a great marinade. And with 6 gallons you don't need to be shy about using it -- I made tacos the other night, using half a bottle of red wine in place of the water to simmer it.

 

[SeniorHobby]

Sounds fun. I love to experiment - try different amounts and see what happens!

No kidding on trying new things. Most of the hard work is done already...fermenting, racking! I will have to order my wine supplies, went to St Cloud MN today to see if a wine supply store was there, no such luck. Will have to order online. Shoot!

 

[SeniorHobby]

If the acidity problem is tartaric acid, test it by putting 1 gallon in the fridge for 2 weeks. If the tartaric is high, it will drop crystals -- rack when cold and taste test.

Calcium carbonate can be used to reduce acid, but use it sparingly. I'd add 1/4 the amount calculated, let the wine rest 2 or 4 weeks before tasting. Repeat if needed.

It may need more sugar than has been tried. A high acid wine balances with a lot of sugar -- I've tasted wines that I figured were going to be syrup, but tasted quite good. Bench test with 4 oz glasses of wine and 2:1 sugar syrup dispensed with a medicine syringe.

Another option is to blend with a commercial wine, e.g., box or jug wine. There's no need to do anything to the batch as a whole -- if you find a solution, it can be implemented on a glass-by-glass basis.

Also keep in mind that high acid wine makes a great marinade. And with 6 gallons you don't need to be shy about using it -- I made tacos the other night, using half a bottle of red wine in place of the water to simmer it.

I think I will take some of the 1/2 gallon of the wine & add the calcium carbonate just to see if it might help. With waiting on the shipment of the supplies on line at least I will have something to do!
I was going to try the wine with my taco meal the other night but that was before I got my taste results back from my tester, I didn't want to spoil my meal, who would've known that I would have made it better!! Live & learn!
I think I will try to bottle a small amount once I do the bench trial for sugar additions. That will give me a variety of wine, some with sugar, some with oak, who knows what else I could do?

 

[Jovimaple]

I will have to order my wine supplies, went to St Cloud MN today to see if a wine supply store was there, no such luck. Will have to order online. Shoot!

If you can make it to the Cities, either Midwest Supplies in St. Louis Park or Northern Brewer in Roseville (I think - I haven't been there in person) might be options. They are sister stores but Midwest Supplies is generally a bit cheaper with a higher threshold for free shipping ($125?) compared to Northern Brewer ($50), if you do order from them online. Sign up at their sites for emails and you will see that if one has a sale, you will also get an email from the other, with the same sale code word. Midwest Supplies also honors the sales at the register if you tell them the sale code word at checkout. I assume NB would, as well, but as I mentioned I haven't been to their physical location - MS is a little closer to me.

Hubby had a medical appointment on Tuesday at the hospital a mile away from MS and visitors/drivers aren't currently allowed to wait in the hospital. I fortunately saved quite a bit of money by making arrangements to go hang out at my brother's home a few miles further away than at my happy place, Midwest Supplies. With 2 hours to wait, that could have gotten expensive!

 

[SeniorHobby]

If you can make it to the Cities, either Midwest Supplies in St. Louis Park or Northern Brewer in Roseville (I think - I haven't been there in person) might be options. They are sister stores but Midwest Supplies is generally a bit cheaper with a higher threshold for free shipping ($125?) compared to Northern Brewer ($50), if you do order from them online. Sign up at their sites for emails and you will see that if one has a sale, you will also get an email from the other, with the same sale code word. Midwest Supplies also honors the sales at the register if you tell them the sale code word at checkout. I assume NB would, as well, but as I mentioned I haven't been to their physical location - MS is a little closer to me.

Hubby had a medical appointment on Tuesday at the nearby hospital and visitors/drivers aren't currently allowed to wait in the hospital. I fortunately saved quite a bit of money by making arrangements to go hang out at my brother's home a few miles further away than at my happy place, Midwest Supplies. With 2 hours to wait, that could have gotten expensive!

Thanks Jovimaple! Twin Cities is about two hour drive. Don't like the drive/triffic. I will do on-line just to save the headache! St Cloud used to have a wine making supply store, too bad it didn't make it!