2 different yeast in a kit

[Elmer]

Back into wine making. Making a Wine Expert Private Reserve Pinot Gris.
Came with 2 packs of yeast which is not unusual, but found it odd they were different varieties.
Lalvin
EC -1118
K1-v1116
Is this common?

in case any on is interested I am
Trying to get close to wife’s favorite wine, which had more of a pear flavor, but finding the flavor difficult to mimic.
Can’t find dried pears, which would require me to prepare and dry down pears. Not sure I have the time for this, so may age on dried apricots, per the advice of some on here!

 

[pillswoj]

Use the K1-v1116, the EC 1118 is included incase of stuck ferment as it will ferment anything.

 

[Elmer]

Use the K1-v1116, the EC 1118 is included incase of stuck ferment as it will ferment anything.

Directions said to use both.
I have done many kits before and usually if there is 2 packs of yeast they are the same.
I have never used 2 different types of yeast in either a wine or beer!

 

[winemaker81]

I've not heard of 2 different yeasts being included in a kit. It's a 23 liter kit? I don't know of a good reason to use 2 packets, as 1 is designed for up to 23 liters, and realistically will successfully inoculate a larger batch.

I agree with @pillswoj, use only the K21-v1116. If it doesn't ferment, you can always add the EC-1118 later.

 

[tttaff]

I made a WinExpert French Bordeaux kit last year that also had two different yeast strains in it (EC1118 and RC212). I emailed WinExpert about it and here was their response:

"EC1118 is used for fermentation. RC212 is used for aromatics. Both work well together and this is not new for us to use complimentary yeasts to create a more complex wine...We found certain wines benefited from a second yeast."

They are meant to be used together.

 

[winemaker81]

@tttaff, thanks for the clarification.

 

[Elmer]

I made a WinExpert French Bordeaux kit last year that also had two different yeast strains in it (EC1118 and RC212). I emailed WinExpert about it and here was their response:

"EC1118 is used for fermentation. RC212 is used for aromatics. Both work well together and this is not new for us to use complimentary yeasts to create a more complex wine...We found certain wines benefited from a second yeast."

They are meant to be used together.

I emailed WineExpert late last night. Got the following response “The K1V is also for aromatics and the EC1118 handles the full fermentation. Both yeast are added on Day 1...”

 

[Khristyjeff]

To get more pear flavor you could try adding a fresh Pear F-pack in secondary (@joeswine - style).

 

[cmason1957]

I had to search for this over on the Facebooks. This is what Daniel Pambianchi has to say about adding two yeasts to one must. I tend to find him a bit more trustworthy than kit manufacturer representatives.

This is a case where the sum of the parts is NOT greater than the whole, and in fact, it might likely be less. I had addressed this question with yeast manufacturers when I first wrote my book. One said, “I don’t understand this fascination with inoculating with different yeasts; it’s good for our business, I guess, but I don’t understand it.” The several manufacturers I have consulted with did NOT support such co-inoculation back then and they do not support it now. Look through Lallemand’s or Laffort’s catalogs, or Scott Labs’ Fermentation Handbook, and you will not see anything about inoculating with different strains. The only exception is the sequential inoculation with a non-Saccharomyces yeast followed by a Saccharomyces yeast, but that’s a different topic.
When you inoculate with different Saccharomyces strains, inevitably there will be competition for nutrients, depriving the weaker strain into growing and fermenting as it should. Neither strain really performs as it was intended to, and in fact, one strain might be so dominant that the weaker strain never has a chance to build up its biomass, which means it may never get involved in metabolizing substrates (sugars, amino acids, etc.). And the results could be very different with the same variety but with grapes from different areas, i.e., juice chemistry could alter yeast metabolism.

 

[joeswine]

See I was correct in blending two different yeast, sometime less is more in this case more is more.
It's ok to think outside the box

 

[jgmann67]

I’ve seen two different yeasts in kits before. Typically, I’d drop the RC212 into the must and hold the EC1118 back. If the fermentation slows or sputters, I’ll drop the second yeast.

my concern with dropping both at the same time is the dominant one will overpower the the other... or in this case, the workhorse EC1118 over the “show horse” RC.

Just my two bits. YMMV.

 

[joeswine]

It's like a partnership in wine one works while the other rest the other rest while the other works but they do have individual jobs to do and they will do them understand, you're not going to hurt anything.
Always enjoy being creative with your wines , it's the reason we do this craft.

 

[tttaff]

my concern with dropping both at the same time is the dominant one will overpower the the other... or in this case, the workhorse EC1118 over the “show horse” RC.

True at some point later during fermentation I would think. But, until that point is reached, there are plenty of resources for both and they both can be doing their thing and contributing their own special characteristics to the wine.

 

[sour_grapes]

I’ve seen two different yeasts in kits before. Typically, I’d drop the RC212 into the must and hold the EC1118 back. If the fermentation slows or sputters, I’ll drop the second yeast.

my concern with dropping both at the same time is the dominant one will overpower the the other... or in this case, the workhorse EC1118 over the “show horse” RC.

Just my two bits. YMMV.

True at some point later during fermentation I would think. But, until that point is reached, there are plenty of resources for both and they both can be doing their thing and contributing their own special characteristics to the wine.

I agree with @jgmann67 's approach. I find the combination of RC-212 and EC-1118 particularly puzzling if one is considering co-inoculating them. EC-1118 excretes the "killer factor" protein, while RC-212 is killer-factor-sensitive. https://www.lallemandwine.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Quick-Yeast-References-Chart_2018_LR.pdf

 

[Sailor323]

Instructions for kits with RC 212 and EC1118 say use both at the same time. According to Lallemande Brewing, RC212 enhances the development of polyphenols in red wine. It is neutral to the competitive factor which means it does not compete with other yeasts and is neutral to the toxins produced by other yeasts.
Saccharomyces cerevisiae cerevisiae
Neutral to the competitive factor
Alcohol tolerance up to 16%
Average lag phase
Moderate fermentation rate
Optimal range of fermentation temperatures: between 20°C to 30°C
High requirement in assimilable nitrogen
Low production of volatile acidity
Low SO2 production
No foam formation
Low cell wall absorption of polyphenols

 

[sour_grapes]

Instructions for kits with RC 212 and EC1118 say use both at the same time. According to Lallemande Brewing, RC212 enhances the development of polyphenols in red wine. It is neutral to the competitive factor which means it does not compete with other yeasts and is neutral to the toxins produced by other yeasts.
Saccharomyces cerevisiae cerevisiae
Neutral to the competitive factor
Alcohol tolerance up to 16%
Average lag phase
Moderate fermentation rate
Optimal range of fermentation temperatures: between 20°C to 30°C
High requirement in assimilable nitrogen
Low production of volatile acidity
Low SO2 production
No foam formation
Low cell wall absorption of polyphenols

Interesting. The information I quoted was ALSO from lallemand.

You didn't include a link, but I think it is here: Lalvin RC212® | Catalogue | Lallemand Wine
And here is my link: https://www.lallemandwine.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Quick-Yeast-References-Chart_2018_LR.pdf

And they don't agree!

 

[hounddawg]

Back into wine making. Making a Wine Expert Private Reserve Pinot Gris.
Came with 2 packs of yeast which is not unusual, but found it odd they were different varieties.
Lalvin
EC -1118
K1-v1116
Is this common?

in case any on is interested I am
Trying to get close to wife’s favorite wine, which had more of a pear flavor, but finding the flavor difficult to mimic.
Can’t find dried pears, which would require me to prepare and dry down pears. Not sure I have the time for this, so may age on dried apricots, per the advice of some on here!

single fruit pear concentrate,, www.colomafrozen.com
Dawg

 

[joeswine]

I believe that if the kit manufacturer stated to use both yeast it's because they have already tried it and can out with a safe and beneficial findings.
I also believe in trying different things it keeps life interesting, don't you think

 

[Sailor323]

Interesting. The information I quoted was ALSO from lallemand.

You didn't include a link, but I think it is here: Lalvin RC212® | Catalogue | Lallemand Wine
And here is my link: https://www.lallemandwine.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Quick-Yeast-References-Chart_2018_LR.pdf

And they don't agree!

Here's the link. click on microbiological and oenological properties. Then look at the technical data sheet. I don't see the contradiction

 

[sour_grapes]

Here's the link. click on microbiological and oenological properties. Then look at the technical data sheet. I don't see the contradiction

I am afraid that you did not include the link.