2015 Chokecherry

[Old Philosopher]

Well I've been keeping an eye on our chokecherry crop, and this year it does not look good. We had a low temp night in May when the blossoms were open, so I think the fertilization was only 10-20%.
They are just now starting to turn to red, & I hope there won't be a "flash" ripening. Our weather has been scalding hot, 90F plus a piercing sun, forest fires all around too. This might very well be the worst chokecherry year since we moved here in 2011.
We'll see

Sorry to hear that. Every thing in my valley here in NW Montana is producing a bumper crop, including chokecherries. My wife and her friend picked 10 gallons of berries over a 2 day period.
A lot of it went into jelly, but I was given a gallon of strained juice to play with.
I found Wade's recipe from back in 2010 (http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8316), but I'm hoping for something simpler since I'm only doing a 1-1 1/2 gal batch.
Which presents the first question: Can/should I dilute the 1 gal of juice with water, if I'm not going to be adding other flavored juice like Wade did? My normal approach for 1 gal of finished wine is to start with at least 1 1/2 gal, allowing for loss during subsequent rackings.
Advice? Anyone?

 

[wyogal]

A lot of it went into jelly, but I was given a gallon of strained juice to play with.
I found Wade's recipe from back in 2010 (http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8316), but I'm hoping for something simpler since I'm only doing a 1-1 1/2 gal batch.
Which presents the first question: Can/should I dilute the 1 gal of juice with water, if I'm not going to be adding other flavored juice like Wade did? My normal approach for 1 gal of finished wine is to start with at least 1 1/2 gal, allowing for loss during subsequent rackings.
Advice? Anyone?

Hi. I would give some consideration to how the juice was prepared. When I extract juice for jelly, I put 4-5 lbs of cherries into a stock pot & add water until it is barely visible, cook & strain. This gives about a quart of juice.
In comparison, the last two batches of chokecherry wine I have made from whole fruit I have used about 3 lbs of fruit per gallon of must.
This seems to me (intuitively only) that the processed juice contains a higher proportion of juice than the must?? But I don't know how the flavor intensity would compare between the two.

Have not added other juice to my chokecherry juice, but I have tried with and without oak, and I highly recommend the oak. It adds a lot of depth and also seems to mellow out faster. The vanilla bean sounds like a nice touch, too

 

[hounddawg]

I already know i'm dumber then dirt , i'm from north east Arkansas what is a choke cherry, we have cherry's here both sweet an sour, but until this site I'd never heard of choke cherries,
thanks
Dawg

 

[Old Philosopher]

I already know i'm dumber then dirt , i'm from north east Arkansas what is a choke cherry, we have cherry's here both sweet an sour, but until this site I'd never heard of choke cherries,
thanks
Dawg

Prunus virginiana, commonly called bitter-berry, chokecherry, Virginia bird cherry and western chokecherry, is a species of bird cherry native to North America; the natural historic range of P. virginiana

 

[hounddawg]

thank you for taking the time to enlighten me and a special kudo for the picture, they look odd like a cross between a Polk berry(poison) and a black elderberry, welp that's the very reason I joined this site was to learn.
yet again I thank you so much
Dawg

 

[Old Philosopher]

They are quite common out here along the Rocky Mountains. Never bothered with them until this year, but they sure make good jelly!
The first picture shows some really ripe ones. Most often they look more like this:

 

[cmason1957]

I already know i'm dumber then dirt , i'm from north east Arkansas what is a choke cherry, we have cherry's here both sweet an sour, but until this site I'd never heard of choke cherries,
thanks
Dawg

You aren't dumber than dirt. I don't think they grow well much South of the Iowa Missouri line. I'd love to find some down this way. My dad talks about child hood neighbors always making some. He grew up in North Dakota.

 

[fabrictodyefor]

those look awesome Old Philosofer. I was able to score some this year, but they did not look that good! We are in a drought and where I usually pick is barren. I have used Wade's recipe and really like it. I have never tried choke cherry without adding another juice! I've used apple or grape, apple being a little sweeter and the grape tends to be dryer. I simmer the choke cherries in the juice I am going to use, then press the juice out....wygal, do you ferment the whole cherry? I've always been a little concerned that since the pit was so much a part of the cherry that maybe that would not be a good thing. Choke cherries make a very nice wine, but be patient. One batch I made took 18 months before it was drinkable! But well worth the wait!

 

[wyogal]

@houndawg

I already know i'm dumber then dirt

The only people "dumber than dirt" are the ones who prefer to remain ignorant rather than ask the question!

OldPh is correct on the botanical name, but there are many subspecies and varieties, and the berries themselves can be very different colors at the ripe stage, and there are big differences in sugar, astringency, and acid. We have at least 3 different native varieties here in Wyoming, and I have seen other cultivars in nurseries. Not to mention variations in climate and micro-climate.

I would be surprised if chokecherries aren't native to the Ozarks, in the higher elevations anyway. Check with your D of Ag county extension agent, he will know.

 

[wyogal]

whole CC fermentation

wygal, do you ferment the whole cherry?

Yes I've made 3 batches from whole cherries, fresh and frozen. In those batches I have put mashed whole cherries in a mesh bag, about 2.5-3.5 pounds per gallon. Added the juice from the mash, water & kmeta/enzymes/nutrient, etc, let sit for a day or more, squeezing the fruit bag, then adjust SG with sugar & acid, wait a bit again then pitch yeast.

I've always been a little concerned that since the pit was so much a part of the cherry that maybe that would not be a good thing.

No, not at all. The poisonous chemical in the pits is viable for a very short time, and easily neutralized by sunlight, drying, soaking, cooking, freezing, just about any kind of processing. The only thing you wouldn't want to do is to swallow large amounts of fresh cherries with pits. The Plains tribes crushed the cherries, pits and all, to add to game meat & dry for "pemmican" a type of jerky. You can put unprocessed pits in your compost, no problem. They break down nicely.

Choke cherries make a very nice wine, but be patient. One batch I made took 18 months before it was drinkable! But well worth the wait!

I thoroughly agree; it is slow to mellow compared to others.

But my batches with oak were much better, much earlier. I don't know enough about wine making to tell you exactly why--all I know is I had 5 gal from a batch put in an oak cask for 6 weeks, and the remainder bottled. After 6 mos the oak treated is definitely drinkable, the plain not so much. I now have the 3rd batch bulk aging with oak chips in a nylon stocking for the last 3 months and I'm about to taste it & bottle it....I'll let you know how that has worked if you will remind me in the fall

Best regards to all

 

[hounddawg]

smoking great ideal, I will.
I live 12 miles into the foothills, black river splits the bottoms from the foothills, I had already planed on asking a nursery if I can grow blue berries, and ya'll have done got me wanting choke berries.
but beside this wine making, yesterday our highest ranking politician in my county and a very honest an good man not to mention a dear friend of mine was in a car wreck last night, the wreak broke his neck, they are to do surgery in the morning, and he can use all the prayers he can get, he is unlike other politicians he goes outta his way to help the needy and the poor, so please as a favor to me please pray for Dial....
thank you so very much,,
Dawg

The only people "dumber than dirt" are the ones who prefer to remain ignorant rather than ask the question!

OldPh is correct on the botanical name, but there are many subspecies and varieties, and the berries themselves can be very different colors at the ripe stage, and there are big differences in sugar, astringency, and acid. We have at least 3 different native varieties here in Wyoming, and I have seen other cultivars in nurseries. Not to mention variations in climate and micro-climate.

I would be surprised if chokecherries aren't native to the Ozarks, in the higher elevations anyway. Check with your D of Ag county extension agent, he will know.

 

[hounddawg]

Try pear juice




t pear juice

those look awesome old philosofer. I was able to score some this year, but they did not look that good! We are in a drought and where i usually pick is barren. I have used wade's recipe and really like it. I have never tried choke cherry without adding another juice! I've used apple or grape, apple being a little sweeter and the grape tends to be dryer. I simmer the choke cherries in the juice i am going to use, then press the juice out....wygal, do you ferment the whole cherry? I've always been a little concerned that since the pit was so much a part of the cherry that maybe that would not be a good thing. Choke cherries make a very nice wine, but be patient. One batch i made took 18 months before it was drinkable! But well worth the wait!

 

[hounddawg]

well i'm not real experienced like most of ya'll but I have fair amount of dealing without enough of one thing to make wine with, just pick every thing you can find, dump all in your ferment barrel and make a Heinz 57, just mix every thing together I often find I really like a Heinz 57 wine, but keep weights of each incase you happen to like it, when I blend I put all my berries and fruits at the very start, I've tried blending after it was wine but that don't come close to blending from the start, and I've learned I like 5 lbs to the gallon menium
Dawg

We had a late frost here. Most of our fruit plants have had some fruit on them, but not very much. Makes it hard to pick enough to use. Hopefully next year. Arne.

 

[fabrictodyefor]

Yes I've made 3 batches from whole cherries, fresh and frozen. In those batches I have put mashed whole cherries in a mesh bag, about 2.5-3.5 pounds per gallon. Added the juice from the mash, water & kmeta/enzymes/nutrient, etc, let sit for a day or more, squeezing the fruit bag, then adjust SG with sugar & acid, wait a bit again then pitch yeast.


No, not at all. The poisonous chemical in the pits is viable for a very short time, and easily neutralized by sunlight, drying, soaking, cooking, freezing, just about any kind of processing. The only thing you wouldn't want to do is to swallow large amounts of fresh cherries with pits. The Plains tribes crushed the cherries, pits and all, to add to game meat & dry for "pemmican" a type of jerky. You can put unprocessed pits in your compost, no problem. They break down nicely.

I thoroughly agree; it is slow to mellow compared to others.

But my batches with oak were much better, much earlier. I don't know enough about wine making to tell you exactly why--all I know is I had 5 gal from a batch put in an oak cask for 6 weeks, and the remainder bottled. After 6 mos the oak treated is definitely drinkable, the plain not so much. I now have the 3rd batch bulk aging with oak chips in a nylon stocking for the last 3 months and I'm about to taste it & bottle it....I'll let you know how that has worked if you will remind me in the fall

Best regards to all

Thanks for all the info! I did end of with 48 lbs of choke cherries, they are in my freezer. I'll try your method for at least one batch! These cherries were not big and plump....we've not had enough rain either. Would you then go on the high side of you poundage? Thinking that you have more weight in the pits and the cherries are not that big?

I've always put the pulp and pits in my compost, but thanks for the info on the poisonousness of the pits. I was never sure about that.

3 months on oak seems a long time, I'll ask you again in a couple of months to see how that turned out. I had put a Chilean Malbec on oak chips for a month and it turned out too oaky. But I'm uncertain of the chemistry of wine making, so that may have been my mistake. [on a side note, I have a friend that LOVED the wine....I also had some apple wine that was light on flavor, so I mixed the Malbec and the apple and we love it!]

Happy cherry hunting

 

[wyogal]

oaking chokecherry wine

I did end of with 48 lbs of choke cherries, they are in my freezer.

Wowie-Zowie! I've never picked that many! The earliest varieties here will be ready to pick this coming week I think. Another week for the reds.

I'll try your method for at least one batch! These cherries were not big and plump....we've not had enough rain either. Would you then go on the high side of you poundage?

Yes, sure I would. I think you can easily go up to 5 lbs per gallon. My problem is that unless I switch to a bathtub, I don't have enough primary fermenting space !

3 months on oak seems a long time, I'll ask you again in a couple of months to see how that turned out.

Well I don't know. I think this is one of those parts of winemaking that makes it an "art." I had that barreled batch in the barrel (it was a brand new barrel) for 6 weeks, on advice of another member who said the rule of thumb was 1 week per gallon of the barrel.

This batch with the chips, I had about 5 gal, did a second racking and then added a small amount of chips -- less than 1 cup dry measure-- in a nylon stocking, suspended it in the carboy. It took almost 2 months before the chips stopped floating. Is that an indicator of anything??? I have no idea.

I think it's very difficult to get accurate info on oaking. Of course the pros don't want to reveal secrets, and I don't blame them. If this turns out way to oaky I will certainly mix it with a plain batch from this year & let it sit a while. Enjoy the rest of the summer FTDF![/QUOTE]

 

[wyogal]

So the chokecherries are gradually ripening. I've been picking a couple hours a day for the last 3 days and have about 25lb.

I know I posted that a lot of blossoms froze in late spring, and that is certainly true, but what did survive those frosts--Wow. I think it is the same situation as in cultivated fruit: if you thin the fruit the remaining set grows larger! Today I picked some ripe chokecherries that were 7/16" in diameter. No kidding--had a ruler with me! I have never seen cc's that big, and I'm older than old.

The other strange effect of this year is that the ripening is much more gradual; usually the season is 7-14 days max. This year there are individual racemes that have wildly varying degrees of ripeness, and it seems much later than usual. Also, the younger trees escaped the frost--they must have flowered later. We don't have nearly the bird pressure we usually do either.

So my AC (adult children) will be here this next week and we will be picking tons. I am thinking I will start a new chokecherry wine thread with as many variations in recipe/treatment as I can manage (just because I need another project before I die, right?) Ha!

I'm thinking about adding vanilla beans? cinnamon sticks? whole cloves? Anyone have any other suggestions or advice on spices in fruits? This is going to be a big project for me because my worst grade in college chemistry was about keeping my notebook properly.