2017 Harford Vineyard Chilean Grape/Juice Pickup

[mainshipfred]

A longer ferment on the Cab is not a bad thing. It's hard to get a rip-roaring hot ferment going in the Spring in our area, so I wouldn't be too concerned. I try and treat each ferment as it's own thing and as I learn to make wine will adjust what I do to them to try and get the best out of the raw materials that I'm buying. I think that is our main mission as a winemaker, let the raw materials best express themselves (ie. don't get in the way by overthinking things).

I'm kind of liking the slow fermentation in my Syrah, it was my plan all along. Don't know why except I just wanted to try it. I'm at 1.032 at day 5 after adding 8 0z of sugar yesterday and starting at 1.090. I did add a little nutrient today maybe 8 grams. TA is about 7.2 and Ph 3.39. Do you think these are OK readings?

John, what would be the ill affects of using the blend rather then the tartaric?

 

[Boatboy24]

TA is about 7.2 and Ph 3.39. Do you think these are OK readings?

Pretty darn good numbers. Did you just take those or were those prior to fermentation? CO2 in the sample can throw off the reading.

 

[mainshipfred]

Pretty darn good numbers. Did you just take those or were those prior to fermentation? CO2 in the sample can throw off the reading.

No, it's like day 5 now. Didn't realize the C02 had an affect on the readings. Just an FYI, my wine pick up at Pearmund is this coming weekend if your able to go. I'll be flexible with the day.

 

[Boatboy24]

No, it's like day 5 now. Didn't realize the C02 had an affect on the readings. Just an FYI, my wine pick up at Pearmund is this coming weekend if your able to go. I'll be flexible with the day.

Saturday is out for me, but Sunday might be possible. We are tentatively doing the Arthritis Walk down at Nats Park, but I think that's early.

 

[Johnd]

John, what would be the ill affects of using the blend rather then the tartaric?

Acid blend contains tartaric, malic, and citric acids. Tartaric is the predominant acid in our grapes/juice, and we use MLF to remove malic acid (which is a stronger, sharper tasting acid) to make our wines smoother. Citric acid has a distinct taste, and is present in minute quantities is grapes/juice.

By using acid blend, you are introducing citric acid where it doesn't belong, and introducing malic acid into an equation where you'd prefer it not exist.

 

[ceeaton]

Racked the Syrah off the gross lees. Got a 6 gallon carboy plus a 4L jug of wine. Pitch CH16 MLB with Acti-ML. SG was 0.996, but still some activity on the surface of the wine (AMH isn't a real foamy when fermenting). Smelled good and stained my racking tube as usual. Soaked in Oxyclean for 10 minutes and it was like new again.

 

[ibglowin]

MLB can not metabolize any man made malic acid which is the only thing sold by a LHBS so whatever you add is stuck in there unless you precipitate it out with salt. (carbonate)

By using acid blend, you are introducing citric acid where it doesn't belong, and introducing malic acid into an equation where you'd prefer it not exist.

 

[ceeaton]

MLB can not metabolize any man made malic acid which is the only thing sold by a LHBS so whatever you add is stuck in there unless you precipitate it out with salt. (carbonate)

Question:
So, is it better to wait, taste and add any acid after fermentation/secondary MLB fermentation, so that you have an idea what your final product is going to be, because it is hard to discern that up front, since after adding acid some will get metabolized, some won't? (sorry, after reading I've constructed an Amish sentence)

I know at times you need to lower pH so that the yeast and/or MLB are happier, but if that isn't the case is it better to just "let it ride" and adjust later?

 

[ibglowin]

Main thing is to never use acid blend on ANY grape wine. Country wines sure.

I used to say add it up front and get it incorporated into the process early. Still feel like that is best practice for reds but whites I really think add it if need be after it has finished so you know where your at pH wise.

Question:
So, is it better to wait, taste and add any acid after fermentation/secondary MLB fermentation, so that you have an idea what your final product is going to be, because it is hard to discern that up front, since after adding acid some will get metabolized, some won't? (sorry, after reading I've constructed an Amish sentence)

I know at times you need to lower pH so that the yeast and/or MLB are happier, but if that isn't the case is it better to just "let it ride" and adjust later?

 

[Johnd]

MLB can not metabolize any man made malic acid which is the only thing sold by a LHBS so whatever you add is stuck in there unless you precipitate it out with salt. (carbonate)

Agreed. Hence, why we use only tartaric for grape wines.....

 

[JohnT]

+1 on @ibglowin and @johnd ...

Tartaric is the predominant acid found in grape juice. This is then followed by malic and citric (in order of predominance).

MLF converts the harsh malic acid into lactic acid. Lactic acid is much "softer" and accounts for some wines having a buttery taste/feel.

I like to adjust acid/ph preferment only when the must really needs it. I like to get at least close to a TA of .55 or higher. Having higher acid during maceration aids in color extraction.

In short, use tartaric and make a judgment call on a pre-ferment acid adjustment.

 

[Bodenski]

I've been checking my SG every day, and this has been the slowest ferments I've ever had. Granted, the juice is right at the low end of acceptable for the yeast. At 8 days after pitching the yeast my SG is at 1.008 for the Cab buckets and 1.020 for the Pinot Grigio. The house is warming up some, and I expect them all to go to completion in the next 3-4 days. (Maybe a little longer for the Pinot. It' been dropping about .008/day so far.)

My plan is to squeeze & pull the grapes once I get under 1.0. I'll also pitch the MLF bacteria at that point. Do I need to add any nutrient for that, or should it be OK? I've also got to split it between my two buckets (maybe 7 gallons total) which means the initial concentration won't be optimal. I guess I could buy another packet, but I was hoping to not have to.

The other plan is to transfer to secondary once it's been stable for three days. That way I'll get a little settling out first (I'll stop stirring once it gets below 1.0). I always lose too much to that initial racking!

 

[zadvocate]

I would add Opti Malo plus for your MLB. Also most MLB packets are good for like 60 gallons so you could split it between buckets no problem.

 

[Ajmassa]

My plan is to squeeze & pull the grapes once I get under 1.0. I'll also pitch the MLF bacteria at that point. Do I need to add any nutrient for that, or should it be OK?

I just did my first batch from grapes with MLF and asked tons of questions. And have learned that if you are inoculating your ML after primary, you should first press the grapes (or squeeze if it's 1 lug in a bag) and transfer wine to carboy. Wine from grapes can drop ALOT out in the first day or two after press. Rack the wine again off the gross lees 2 days after press. The gross lees can be bad for the malo allegedly.
And mostly everyone recommended adding opti-malo as well as the ACTI-ML used with rehydrating the ML. I've read to add opti malo 1-2 days before, same time, as well as 1 day after adding the ML. So "when" seems to be preference for malo nutrient.

 

[Bodenski]

I would add Opti Malo plus for your MLB. Also most MLB packets are good for like 60 gallons so you could split it between buckets no problem.

I'm using https://morewinemaking.com/products/wyeast-4007-liquid-malolactic-bacteria-125ml.html since it's all they had at my local HBS. Packet says it's good for 5 gallons. It's probably too late for me to try and do a starter culture to expand it. Plan is to split it between my two buckets. I also just plan on letting it go for two months then adding campden tablets. I don't feel like spending the money on a way to test the level at this point. I'm lucky to have a pH meter and a way to titrate acids!

 

[Johnd]

I've been checking my SG every day, and this has been the slowest ferments I've ever had. Granted, the juice is right at the low end of acceptable for the yeast. At 8 days after pitching the yeast my SG is at 1.008 for the Cab buckets and 1.020 for the Pinot Grigio. The house is warming up some, and I expect them all to go to completion in the next 3-4 days. (Maybe a little longer for the Pinot. It' been dropping about .008/day so far.)

My plan is to squeeze & pull the grapes once I get under 1.0. I'll also pitch the MLF bacteria at that point. Do I need to add any nutrient for that, or should it be OK? I've also got to split it between my two buckets (maybe 7 gallons total) which means the initial concentration won't be optimal. I guess I could buy another packet, but I was hoping to not have to.

The other plan is to transfer to secondary once it's been stable for three days. That way I'll get a little settling out first (I'll stop stirring once it gets below 1.0). I always lose too much to that initial racking!

If you're going to wait until after pressing to add your MLB, consider postponing the inoculation just a bit. Press and get your juice into carboys, rack off of the gross lees in 2-3 days, add your MLB at that racking off of the gross lees. No sense adding the MLB and then leaving the lees behind in 2-3 days, they will be rich in MLB content.

 

[mainshipfred]

MLB can not metabolize any man made malic acid which is the only thing sold by a LHBS so whatever you add is stuck in there unless you precipitate it out with salt. (carbonate)

Well lesson learned, did some research on the malic and found what you were referring to the 2 types D and L. To boot Carlson's blend is 10% tartaric, 50% Malic and 40% Citric not a good ratio. I'm stuck with the citric so the question is would the MLB if left in long enough convert all the naturally occuring malic and I would only be left with the synthetic? Per the ratio I have about 13g of synthetic. The other recommendation rather then carbonate was to blend the wine. All I have to blend with is a lower end Malbec and a better Pinot Noir.
Any recommendations or should I just leave it and have a "not the greatest wine".

 

[Boatboy24]

Fred: Have you already added the blend? I believe I have some Tartaric on hand. If we manage to meet up this weekend, I can give you some.

Precipitating acid out with carbonate is an option, but if I recall correctly, that process preferentially goes after Tartaric first, which would just exacerbate your issue.

 

[mainshipfred]

Fred: Have you already added the blend? I believe I have some Tartaric on hand. If we manage to meet up this weekend, I can give you some.

Precipitating acid out with carbonate is an option, but if I recall correctly, that process preferentially goes after Tartaric first, which would just exacerbate your issue.

I always had tartaric, I just didn't know the difference at the time and yes it is already added. I think I am just going to have to hope for the best and maybe try a few different blending options before I bottle, but that's a year or so down the road. If I did try to carbonate couldn't I add additional tartaric afterward?

 

[ibglowin]

Potassium Carbonate is an equal opportunity precipitator. You may get a bigger dump of TA but only because the amount is higher to begin with than MA.

Precipitating acid out with carbonate is an option, but if I recall correctly, that process preferentially goes after Tartaric first, which would just exacerbate your issue.