5 gal wood barrel recommendation?

[winemaker81]

Looking at Midwest Barrels (fresh-dumped) in addition to other options. What type of schedule should I expect in starting one of these? Have they given up a significant amount of oak compared to a brand new barrel? Balancing pros and cons of (1) MoreWineMaking Hungarian ($$), (2) fresh-dumped bourbon barrel - American oak or (3) new American oak

Barrels are considered neutral at 3 yo, and bourbon has a minimum legal requirement of 2 years in oak, although 4 years is common. It's generally safe to assume a whiskey barrel is neutral or near neutral. You can cycle wine through at your own preference.

A new 56 liter Hungarian oak barrel is $400 USD, while Beth paid ~$150 (including shipping) for 10 gallon barrels. You can buy a LOT of oak adjuncts for the $250 difference ...

 

[VinesnBines]

Barrels are considered neutral at 3 yo, and bourbon has a minimum legal requirement of 2 years in oak, although 4 years is common. It's generally safe to assume a whiskey barrel is neutral or near neutral. You can cycle wine through at your own preference.

A new 56 liter Hungarian oak barrel is $400 USD, while Beth paid ~$150 (including shipping) for 10 gallon barrels. You can buy a LOT of oak adjuncts for the $250 difference ...

The shipping on the MoreWine barrel is another $50.

Anyway, I’m expecting the Midwest barrels to be fairly neutral. I’ve only had them filled for a week or two so no verdict on oak character, yet.

 

[JBP]

The fresh dump bourbon barrels at Midwest Barrels are listed as medium or heavy char instead of toast - are those the ones you bought, @VinesnBines?

 

[VinesnBines]

The fresh dump bourbon barrels at Midwest Barrels are listed as medium or heavy char instead of toast - are those the ones you bought, @VinesnBines?

Yes. I wasn't concerned about char level since they would be mostly neutral. The char goes early, like the oak flavor.

I got one of these; 10 Gallon Lincoln County Reserve Maple Syrup Ex-Distillery 291 Bourbon Barrel - Fresh Dumped. I have a cider fermenting in that one. I can't detect any oakiness in the cider. I'll empty it in a couple weeks and move my 2023 Chambourcin into it.

Midwest had a sale in early October so I got one of these: 10 Gallon Distillery 291 Bourbon Barrel - Fresh Dumped, Once Used Unfortunately they are our of stock at the moment. I racked my 2022 Chambourcin into it on October 26. Already it is smoothing out the rough edges of the Cahmbourcin. I can't detect any additional oak. Be warned though, I added 750 ml to top up it up today. The barrel is soaking up wine and evaporation is taking water out. Just what I want but instead of checking monthly, on these smaller barrels, it may be weekly. Be certain you have planty of top up wine.

Sign up for email and you get notice of sales.

 

[JBP]

Thanks so much - good to have valuable experience to help in decision-making.

 

[winemaker81]

I got one of these; 10 Gallon Lincoln County Reserve Maple Syrup Ex-Distillery 291 Bourbon Barrel - Fresh Dumped. I have a cider fermenting in that one. I can't detect any oakiness in the cider. I'll empty it in a couple weeks and move my 2023 Chambourcin into it.

I couldn't think of a use for a maple syrup barrel ... but I just thought of putting Metheglin in one ... gotta find room for another barrel ... Beth, you are a bad influence ...

 

[MiBor]

The shipping on the MoreWine barrel is another $50.

I just looked at the 5gal Hungarian oak barrel on MoreWine and the page says that this barrel qualifies for free shipping (on orders over $59).

Balazs Hungarian Oak Barrel | Mild Toast | 20L | 5.28 gal | MoreWine

If that's the case, with tax, you can buy that barrel for $250. The capacity of the barrel is stated to be 5.28 gallons, which is perfect for aging a 6 gal kit or bucket, with enough wine remaining for top-ups for 3-4 months.

I'm looking into getting one for myself and rotating white wines through it, as I'm trying to get away from making a lot of the same kind of wine and making smaller batches of a wider diversity. Hopefully they are of a better quality than my first 2 Hungarian oak barrels. I will also get one from Gibbs Bros. of the same size, to use for small batch red wines.

 

[VinesnBines]

Apparently the 20l is free shipping. The 56l does not qualify for free shipping. Like carboys, I need a variety of sizes.

 

[VinesnBines]

Midwest Barrels has the 291 Distillery 10 gallon, fresh dump, back in stock.

10 Gallon Distillery 291 Bourbon Barrel - Fresh Dumped, Once Used $149.99 w/o shipping.

 

[David Violante]

So I was thinking about all this on the way to work and what passes me on the bridge? A Hudson Distillery delivery truck.… yep. About 15 minutes away from where I live. Good Lord. I emailed them and am working out some 5 and 10 Gallon fresh dumped bourbon barrel options. In addition to a local discount, no delivery! WooHoo!

 

[StimVino]

I bought my first barrel a little over a year ago, Hungarian oak from morewine and after my experience with it recently decided to get another.
I just 5 days ago received a 10 gallon American oak barrel from Gibbs Brothers Cooperage in Arkansas. I’ve not aged wine in it yet. The workmanship appears to be impeccable.

Jim, was looking at both options for my first barrel purchase; The balazs comes in 7-gal, which I thought was an odd size. So, im leaning towards 4 - 10gal barrels from Gibbs. Was also considering 2 - 5gal for some flexibility; Is the quality of the balazs much better? Any leaks in the Gibbs barrel? Any feedback appreciated. Tks-

 

[Jim Welch]

Jim, was looking at both options for my first barrel purchase; The balazs comes in 7-gal, which I thought was an odd size. So, im leaning towards 4 - 10gal barrels from Gibbs. Was also considering 2 - 5gal for some flexibility; Is the quality of the balazs much better? Any leaks in the Gibbs barrel? Any feedback appreciated. Tks-

The Balazs drums do appear to be a higher quality, I had zero leakage/seepage with it, a 40L/7.9 gallon barrel. The Gibbs barrel, a 10 gallon barrel, had some seepage but not to the point of any drips. Here’s a couple pics.

 

[VinesnBines]

So I was thinking about all this on the way to work and what passes me on the bridge? A Hudson Distillery delivery truck.… yep. About 15 minutes away from where I live. Good Lord. I emailed them and am working out some 5 and 10 Gallon fresh dumped bourbon barrel options. In addition to a local discount, no delivery! WooHoo!

How much are you going to pay for the 5 and 10 gallon? I’d like an idea for bargaining. I know of some micro distilleries I can contact.

 

[wood1954]

My son in law works with a distillery in the St. Louis area, he buys a 60 gallon barrel of bourbon for his charity every year. He just got me an American oak 15 gallon freshly used bourbon barrel for $50. Normally the distillery charges $100, so the lesson here is check out small distilleries for barrels. Lucky for me my daughter is coming to Wisconsin for thanksgiving bringing the barrel with her.

 

[VinesnBines]

My son in law works with a distillery in the St. Louis area, he buys a 60 gallon barrel of bourbon for his charity every year. He just got me an American oak 15 gallon freshly used bourbon barrel for $50. Normally the distillery charges $100, so the lesson here is check out small distilleries for barrels. Lucky for me my daughter is coming to Wisconsin for thanksgiving bringing the barrel with her.

Yes, David’s post made me think. I have several micro distilleries that are convenient so I need to start checking. All they can do is either say yes, no or ignore me.

 

[David Violante]

Sounds like they sell 10 gallon barrels for ~$100 but they are going to get back to me on the ‘local’ cost. I’ll let you know. I promised them some bottles as well. They were pretty happy to be helping out a local guy interested in upping his quality.

 

[MiBor]

The Balazs drums do appear to be a higher quality, I had zero leakage/seepage with it, a 40L/7.9 gallon barrel. The Gibbs barrel, a 10 gallon barrel, had some seepage but not to the point of any drips.

One thing I have learned after multiple trials with different barrels is that, before swelling of any new barrel (or old ones that were empty for a while), you have to tighten the hoops. The coopers won't tell you to do that for the new ones, because they feel it brings into question their workmanship, but that's what most experienced users of small barrels do.

As the new barrels sit in warehouses, they dry out and gaps develop in the heads and between staves, that swelling alone may not fix. The barrels can't be wrapped airtight because they could grow mold inside that wrapping and that would render the barrel useless, so they inevitably dry and shrink, even when they sit for only a month after they're crafted.

After my 5th barrel had some problems and didn't completely seal after 3 days of swelling, I bought a 5lbs hammer and a 3" masonry chisel that I reshaped to have a slight curve, on a grinder. An older friend with lots of experience advised me to do so, and I trusted his advice.

I emptied the barrel, let it dry for 3 weeks, tightened the hoops with the hammer and chisel about a 1/4"in, and lo and behold, no leaks anymore.

I've done that to every barrel I bought ever since and had no leaks at all, from the get-go.

One other thing I was advised to do is to never keep the small barrels empty and sulfur them before storing for extended periods of time. My friend explained that this method is ok for 55 gal barrels or bigger, but the smaller ones will warp unevenly as they dry out and I may never be able to get them to seal tight again.

For small barrels, a holding solution of SO2 and tartaric acid is the best way of keeping them in shape between batches. I've told this to a few younger winemakers I know and one of them decided to prove me wrong. He lost a couple of 5 gallon Gibbs barrels. You live, you learn, I guess...

 

[Jim Welch]

One thing I have learned after multiple trials with different barrels is that, before swelling of any new barrel (or old ones that were empty for a while), you have to tighten the hoops. The coopers won't tell you to do that for the new ones, because they feel it brings into question their workmanship, but that's what most experienced users of small barrels do.

As the new barrels sit in warehouses, they dry out and gaps develop in the heads and between staves, that swelling alone may not fix. The barrels can't be wrapped airtight because they could grow mold inside that wrapping and that would render the barrel useless, so they inevitably dry and shrink, even when they sit for only a month after they're crafted.

After my 5th barrel had some problems and didn't completely seal after 3 days of swelling, I bought a 5lbs hammer and a 3" masonry chisel that I reshaped to have a slight curve, on a grinder. An older friend with lots of experience advised me to do so, and I trusted his advice.

I emptied the barrel, let it dry for 3 weeks, tightened the hoops with the hammer and chisel about a 1/4"in, and lo and behold, no leaks anymore.

I've done that to every barrel I bought ever since and had no leaks at all, from the get-go.

One other thing I was advised to do is to never keep the small barrels empty and sulfur them before storing for extended periods of time. My friend explained that this method is ok for 55 gal barrels or bigger, but the smaller ones will warp unevenly as they dry out and I may never be able to get them to seal tight again.

For small barrels, a holding solution of SO2 and tartaric acid is the best way of keeping them in shape between batches. I've told this to a few younger winemakers I know and one of them decided to prove me wrong. He lost a couple of 5 gallon Gibbs barrels. You live, you learn, I guess...

I appreciate the advice, I’d read about the possibility of having to tighten the hoops but the Gibbs barrel just had some seepage around the heads. I have a white towel under the barrel to make it easier to see any dripping and as of yesterday morning there were no drips. I believe it has sealed now.

 

[Ajmassa]

My son in law works with a distillery in the St. Louis area, he buys a 60 gallon barrel of bourbon for his charity every year. He just got me an American oak 15 gallon freshly used bourbon barrel for $50. Normally the distillery charges $100, so the lesson here is check out small distilleries for barrels. Lucky for me my daughter is coming to Wisconsin for thanksgiving bringing the barrel with her.

My family made wine since forever here in philly and they used to get thier barrels for free. Jacquin’s Liquors is located in the city a couple blocks from where the old Connie Mack baseball park used to be. They would give ‘em out no charge. (Only full sized 55g) Today I believe they stil do for a small fee.

@winemaker81 your cheap ass still making 2nd run? You’re like the only guy around here who’s a 2nd run loyalist. I need to hunt you down and find out for myself.

In 2019 I purchased the first 54 liter barrel, and put the second run from Merlot, Malbec, & Zinfandel in it, as none of the 3 first run batches were large enough to fill it. That hooked me, my gateway into barrels.

 

[winemaker81]

@winemaker81 your cheap ass still making 2nd run? You’re like the only guy around here who’s a 2nd run loyalist. I need to hunt you down and find out for myself.

Yes, my cheap arse is still making second run wines!

The 2019 came out great and was good for 3 years before it started declining. The 2020 was not as good, it's mostly cooking wine, down to a few bottles.

Last year we did something completely different -- I purchased two Merlot kits and added the pomace from Grenache to one and Tempranillo to the other. Both wines are nice, enough that I wish I had more!

This year we purchased two Sangiovese buckets, and added pomace from CS, CF, and Merlot to them. If all goes well, we'll press later today as a single batch, and it's going to spend 12 months in barrel. We got a free ~55 liter barrel from someone who is moving -- I don't have room for it, so my son is taking custody.

I thought making kits or juice buckets + pomace was a special idea, but I'm far from the first to do it. Other folks are adding the pomace from one wine to a kit or bucket.