71B Won't Start

[Just-a-Guy]

Hi Folks,

I have an apricot wine (made from VH cans) that has been in the primary for four days now with 71B, and there is no visible activity. I had tried to make a starter, and the yeast did foam up a little, but not much. I figured it would take off in the must (which had an SG between 1.090 and 1.100). Really annoyed, this is the second time I've had a 71B apparently fail (last time it was in the starter, which I pitched after about the same about of time, with NO activity in it).

I'm thinking I'll just pitch a 1118 on top of the must at this point. Will the combination of the two yeasts cause any issues -- either assuming the 71B was dead, or in case it somehow decides to take off? I'm assuming the 1118 would overpower the 71B either way. Will "two yeasts" make the wine taste off?

Thanks for any help,

JAG

 

[seth8530]

Have you checked the gravity to see if it is moving? What is your temperature at? Did you sulfite it?

 

[Julie]

I use 71b all the time and have never had a problem. What is your recipe and procedure so far? It is difficult to figure what went wrong without knowing what all you added and did.

 

[Just-a-Guy]

This was 2 96 oz cans of Vintner's Harvest apricot, with spring water topped up to 5 gallons, 2 1/2 ts acid blend, 2 1/2 tsp pectic enzyme, 1 tsp tannin and about 2 tsp (just under) meta. Plus 10 lbs granulated sugar. I heated the apricots and about half the water in a kettle to about 160 and dissolved the sugar in it. Added that and the rest of the water to the fermenter, got the temp down under 100F, and added the meta; waited overnight then added the other additives; waited overnight then added the yeast. Nothing. I checked the SG just now and it hasn't budged - except slightly up (fruit?) - 1.100. Temp has been a steady 77-80F since adding the yeast (digital temp on conical fermenter allows constant monitoring).

Edit: The must tastes very good right now, but I am worried about bacteria with no fermentation...

 

[Thig]

Don't know if it would stop a fermentation from starting but that sounds like an awful lot of kmeta.

 

[Julie]

2 tsp will hamper fermentation starting, I would splash rack a couple of times. Why did you add that much K-meta, did your recipe call for that amount?

 

[Just-a-Guy]

2 tsp will hamper fermentation starting, I would splash rack a couple of times. Why did you add that much K-meta, did your recipe call for that amount?

This whole kmeta thing is driving me nuts. The recipe provides for a "solution" of 5 campden tablets mixed in with water, or 5 tsps of meta dissolved in 8 oz of water and then substitute a tsp of that solution for each suggested Campden tablet. I am not great at trying to figure all that out, and just assumed based on other recipes I've read that 2 tsps of potassium metabisulfite at the start of a batch is about right. I actually only did about 1 1/2. Do you think that is stopping the fermentation? Seems odd to me...

 

[GreginND]

1 Campden tablet is the equivalent of 1/16 of a teaspoon of the dry powder. I think you made some mistakes in your calculations.

You should add only 1/4 tsp of the k-meta powder for 5 gallons. You added 6 times too much.

I agree with the others. You'll have to splash it a lot to dissipate the SO2.

 

[Stressbaby]

The equivalent of 5 Campden tabs is 1/4 tsp of kmeta. Generally I'd use 1/4 tsp kmeta in a 5-6 gal batch. So it sounds like you are over by a factor of 6.

Also, I don't think the directions are correct where they discuss adding the solution; at least I don't think the two offered alternatives are equivalent.


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[grapeman]

Generally when making wine from fruit, k-meta of some sort is added to supress the wild yeast present on the fruit. That allows a known yeast (wine type) to establish itself and be the dominant yeast in the process. When beginning from a puree or juice there normally should not be the wild yeast present so there is no need to add the k-meta to those batches. With 6 to 8 times the needed amount of k-meta added it is no surprise the yeast has not begun yet. The idea of splashing the batch at this point is to introduce extra oxygen into the process which will help bind up the excess sulfites in it from the k-meta (campden). Keep it warm and splash it a couple times a day until you see the batch take off.

See this as a learning experience and learn from the mistake. If you don't understand something just ask the question here and hopefully you get help in time to prevent a mistake. Believe me you aren't the first one (nor the last) to make this mistake. Good luck to you and I hope it kicks off soon. If not, get another couple cans and try again.

 

[seth8530]

This is one reason why I tend to not follow recipies. I might use them for inspiration, but after that it is off to the process driven style for me. Ie, think about every thing you do in the wine making process and develop a knowledge base that will guide you through your fermentations.

For example,

So, if you got to the point of deciding to add Kmeta, you would first think.. Does it need it? Yes or no? Is it from wild fruit, then yes or is it looking a little sad? Then yes. Is it a processed fruit and do I have any other reason to add it? Then no? If you decided yes, you would then either look at the Kmeta package or figure out on your own how many ppm of so2 you would want and then add to that amount.

So, this is what I mean by more of a process driven wine making style than a recipie driven style.

 

[BernardSmith]

Seth's point aside, I guess the VH approach to making a sulfite solution is based on the assumption that it is easier for most folk to be able to draw 5 t of solution from 8 oz of water into which 5 t of k-meta has been dissolved than it is to dissolve 1/4 t of K-meta in 5 gallons (I am assuming that their solution is equivalent) because 1 can of their fruit juice is best suited to make 3 gallons of wine (while 2 cans makes an even richer 5 gallon batch) but why their instructions don't simply say something like dissolve 1/4 t in 5 fl oz of water or 1/4 t in 100 CCs and add 1fl oz (or 20 CCs) for every gallon of must and so make it easy for anyone to make use of an appropriate amount of K-meta no mater whether they were making 1 gallon or 3 or 5. VH instructions sound like trying to scratch your left ear from behind your head with your right hand...

 

[Just-a-Guy]

Thanks, all, for the continuing help, very much appreciated and I am learning (I hope).

Just a quick update. I'm out of available carboys, so after standing there for a while last night pondering how to do a series of splash rackings, I gave up and tossed a pack of 1118 on the must. Partly this was because this is the second pack of 71B that failed to start for me, from the same source (yeah, I should have learned), and I was largely convinced this was all about that - a bad batch of yeast. Also partly because I have seen wines take off and ferment like crazy with similar amounts of meta in them (because I have made this dumb mistake before), so I was tempted to believe (hoping) the meta was not the cause of my problem.

Within an hour of pitching the 1118 (I just dumped it into the fermenter, didn't even make a starter), I was seeing foam. And this morning, 8 hours later, this is what it looked like. Do you think it will be ok? I'm still worried about possible bacteria growth during the nearly five days of inactivity, and also a little worried about the flavor impact of a package of dead yeast in the must....

 

[sour_grapes]

Do you think it will be ok? I'm still worried about possible bacteria growth during the nearly five days of inactivity, and also a little worried about the flavor impact of a package of dead yeast in the must....

Yes, it should be fine. The SO2 that prevented (I am assuming) your yeast from taking off even more strongly prevented bacteria from gaining a foothold.

As for taste from the yeast, again, you have nothing to fear. In a normal fermentation, many more yeast cells (and lots and lots of yeast biomass) are produced than the amount in one or two packets; the small, additional amount you added will be imperceptible.

 

[Just-a-Guy]

Yes, it should be fine. The SO2 that prevented (I am assuming) your yeast from taking off even more strongly prevented bacteria from gaining a foothold.

As for taste from the yeast, again, you have nothing to fear. In a normal fermentation, many more yeast cells (and lots and lots of yeast biomass) are produced than the amount in one or two packets; the small, additional amount you added will be imperceptible.

Thanks, that's a relief (and makes perfect sense).

This really is an awesome forum.

 

[BernardSmith]

I suspect that dead yeast will act as nutrient for the killer yeast you added and the killer yeast (EC 1118) does not play well with any other variety of yeast - hence its reputation as a killer yeast. In short, even if the first batch of yeast was simply stunned by the amount of SO2 and too busy repairing themselves to undertake any fermentation, the addition of EC 1118 will have finished them off.

 

[Just-a-Guy]

I suspect that dead yeast will act as nutrient for the killer yeast you added and the killer yeast (EC 1118) does not play well with any other variety of yeast - hence its reputation as a killer yeast. In short, even if the first batch of yeast was simply stunned by the amount of SO2 and too busy repairing themselves to undertake any fermentation, the addition of EC 1118 will have finished them off.

I love the way you describe this. Sounds like a great sci-fi film -- "The Killer Yeast!"

 

[BernardSmith]

Ha ha... Wish I could credit for that term but I think it is fairly widely used.

 

[sour_grapes]

I suspect that dead yeast will act as nutrient for the killer yeast you added and the killer yeast (EC 1118) does not play well with any other variety of yeast - hence its reputation as a killer yeast.

While EC1118 does have a positive competitive factor, this does not mean it feeds on the other yeast. It can kill some other yeast, but does not eat them. Here is a description of the competitive factor from Lalvin:

Competitive factor:
The mitochondria of some yeast strains have the ability to produce a small 1100 MW protein that is guided through the cell wall and attaches itself to the cell wall of another strain of yeast disrupting the magnesium metabolism resulting in the death of the cell. This tiny protein was first observed in 1964 and was thought to be restricted to this one strain. Several years later a survey was made of many wine culture collections and the ability to produce this disruptive protein was found in 20 - 80% of the strains. It seemed to be more prevalent in the warm regions and less prevalent in cold climates. A further study found that all genus of yeast have some strains that produce the competitive factor. The factor from one genus cannot cross over and kill yeast from another genus. There are five or more competitive factors: K1, K2, K3 etc. Ninety-five percent (95%) of the strains of wine yeast can make the K2 competitive factor and five percent (5%) can produce the K1 competitive factor. Yeast strains are divided into three categories regarding the competitive factor:
1. Competitive positive, which is a yeast strain that produces a competitive factor protein and is immune to this protein produced by other strains.
2. Competitive neutral, which is a yeast strain that does not produce a competitive factor protein and is immune to the competitive factor proteins produced by other yeast.
3. Competitive sensitive, which is a yeast strain that does not produce a competitive factor protein and is sensitive to the competitive factor proteins from other strains.
The competitive factor functions best at >4.0 pH and is almost inactivated at low pH. It is wise to be aware of the competitive factor when selecting a yeast for primary and secondary fermentation and if you are adding a second yeast to restart a sluggish or stuck fermentation, but do not rely on it to take the place of good sanitation.

 

[BernardSmith]

Don't know that I suggested that the yeast eats the competitor yeasts but don't the dead yeast cells autolyze (break down) and when they break down don't the active yeast make use of the chemicals (minerals and nutrients) that now become part of the active yeast's environment? I guess I am saying that yeast do cannibalize dead yeast - Whoa - shades of Soylent Green