A Couple Beginner Questions

[Darrell Hawley]

i figure if for thousands of years naturally good water was used then i'll just do the same, now i don't strive to make traditional wines, just good ole sweet country wines, with good water your body benefits from the minerals in the water, i figure that as long as you have good water then that's that, my style is very laid back non-technical, just calmly slowly easing along, my country hillbilly butt with my sweet country wines,
Dawg

Hounddawg, have you ever used some brown sugar in your wine ? I used 20% dark brown sugar on some cherry wine and it turned out better than all white sugar. Haven't tried brown sugar on any other wine yet.

 

[justsipn]

Speaking of sugar, has anyone ever used honey? I have a source of local non-processed honey and it’s delicious.

 

[Ikeya]

Speaking of sugar, has anyone ever used honey? I have a source of local non-processed honey and it’s delicious.

I use honey almost every batch. I start with a mix of honey and sugar. Then i feed honey during the first 5 tob7 days to up the alcohol. I originally used it because it was easy to add to it, but it gave it good flavor.

 

[justsipn]

I use honey almost every batch. I start with a mix of honey and sugar. Then i feed honey during the first 5 tob7 days to up the alcohol. I originally used it because it was easy to add to it, but it gave it good flavor.

I first started thinking about it when someone explained how you make a syrup out of sugar and water to back sweeten.

 

[Ikeya]

I first started thinking about it when someone explained how you make a syrup out of sugar and water to back sweeten.

I have used honey and brown sugar to back sweeten. It gives it a good flavor. Agave nectar is not good to use as the initial sugar. It took waaaaay to much to bring my levels up lol

 

[hounddawg]

Hounddawg, have you ever used some brown sugar in your wine ? I used 20% dark brown sugar on some cherry wine and it turned out better than all white sugar. Haven't tried brown sugar on any other wine yet.

no but beings you brought that up i will.
Dawg

 

[hounddawg]

Speaking of sugar, has anyone ever used honey? I have a source of local non-processed honey and it’s delicious.

i tried honey on elderberry ,,, blackberry,, strawberry,, and a few others, it was great the first 2 years, by 4 years it was not my cup of tea, i used non-gmo organic raw wildflower honey, also made some mead and several melomel, i use honey very day in my tim hortons dark roast coffee but not in my wines no more,,, but with a permanent trach some things , well it just turned my tastes different then before the tracheostomy ,,
Dawg

 

[G259]

Speaking of sugar, has anyone ever used honey? I have a source of local non-processed honey and it’s delicious.

Using honey (and I do this) in wine is called mead (like the vikings drank). I have tried a traditional mead (water and honey, back-sweetened with honey), interesting! Apple mead, and I have a apple cider mead going. You can use grapes as well.

 

[DizzyIzzy]

I have a question because I am confused about when, and how much either kmeta or potassium sorbate is used. Question is this: If primary fermentation is done and one racks into the secondary fermenter, does one add kmeta and/or potassium sorbate at that time? Also, how much? My confusion lies in my reading that says a different kind of fermentation is occuring during the secondary fermenter (MLF). Wouldn't the kmeta and sorbate prevent that fermenting action? Please help as I have three in secondary F. and don't know what to do now.

 

[joeswine]

Stay with the kit process it tells you when to add chems and when not to.
Even if you use them just as a guide line.
Guessing and off the wall conjecture is in correct.
There are rules on wine making it helped me greatly ( Wikipedia)and attach it to my work board or make a file to referenced to s needed.
Just a thought.

 

[Johnd]

I have a question because I am confused about when, and how much either kmeta or potassium sorbate is used. Question is this: If primary fermentation is done and one racks into the secondary fermenter, does one add kmeta and/or potassium sorbate at that time? Also, how much? My confusion lies in my reading that says a different kind of fermentation is occuring during the secondary fermenter (MLF). Wouldn't the kmeta and sorbate prevent that fermenting action? Please help as I have three in secondary F. and don't know what to do now.

First, let’s clarify some terms.
Kmeta (sulfite) is used to inhibit wild yeasts and bacterial agents from getting a foothold in our wine.Most commercial yeasts have some sulfite tolerance.
Sorbate is birth control for yeast, it prevents yeast from budding and reproducing a colony capable of fermentation. It will not stop an active fermentation, but will prevent a new one from getting started if you add sugar to your wine.

In the winemaking world, exclusive of the kit world, “secondary fermentation” refers to MLF (Malolactic Fermentation), a bacterial fermentation that converts harsh malic acid into smoother lactic acid. Most of us who make red wine from grapes conduct MLF either during alcoholic fermentation, or immediately following AF, by adding the bacteria to cause this to occur. Kmeta inhibits MLF, so we seek to minimize, if not avoid its use until MLF is completed. The presence of sorbate in a wine that undergoes MLF will ruin the wine, period. So the answer where kits are NOT concerned is no Kmeta (or very little) and no sorbate, period.

Hop over to the kit world. In this world, secondary fermentation doesn’t refer to MLF, but instead, to the completion of alcoholic in a SECOND vessel, typically a carboy or demijohn. They call this “secondary fermentation”, even though it refers to the completion of alcoholic fermentation in a second vessel. This terminology discrepancy created by the kit instructions is the source of much confusion. Even in the kit world, no Kmeta or sorbate need be used until AF is complete.

Short and sweet, with kits and grapes and fruits and vegetables, alcoholic fermentation is conducted until the wine is nearly out of sugar, then we move our wine to a new vessel to finish AF, a vessel that helps us prevent too much oxygen exposure as fermentation ceases, and the CO2 that protects it from oxygen is no longer being created. No Kmeta or sorbate needs to be used until your AF is 100% complete. Sorbate is unnecessary if AF has used up all of your sugar and you don’t plan to add sugar to make your wine sweeter.

 

[hounddawg]

Using honey (and I do this) in wine is called mead (like the vikings drank). I have tried a traditional mead (water and honey, back-sweetened with honey), interesting! Apple mead, and I have a apple cider mead going. You can use grapes as well.

the addition of fruits or berries ain't that a melomel ? just wondering ?

 

[G259]

. . . also, how do i know that mlf is happening? do i have to add a culture to the wine? will it happen naturally? I have an Apple, Kiwi, Strawberry, from 3/24, that is still bubbling. Degassing or MLF (1/40 sec.)?

 

[hounddawg]

Hounddawg, have you ever used some brown sugar in your wine ? I used 20% dark brown sugar on some cherry wine and it turned out better than all white sugar. Haven't tried brown sugar on any other wine yet.

no, buy next cherry i will, tomorrow i plan to rack 2# 6's of strawberry and start a DB of cherry/black raspberry/blueberry followed by peach, then i will try a sour cherry with brown sugar,
sounds very interesting, thank you
Dawg

 

[hounddawg]

Dawg

 

[DizzyIzzy]

Stay with the kit process it tells you when to add chems and when not to.
Even if you use them just as a guide line.
Guessing and off the wall conjecture is in correct.
There are rules on wine making it helped me greatly ( Wikipedia)and attach it to my work board or make a file to referenced to s needed.
Just a thought.

Thankyou Joe for your reply. The three I was talking about are not from kits otherwise I would, indeed have followed their instructions. I will check out Wikipedia now.

 

[DizzyIzzy]

First, let’s clarify some terms.
Kmeta (sulfite) is used to inhibit wild yeasts and bacterial agents from getting a foothold in our wine.Most commercial yeasts have some sulfite tolerance.
Sorbate is birth control for yeast, it prevents yeast from budding and reproducing a colony capable of fermentation. It will not stop an active fermentation, but will prevent a new one from getting started if you add sugar to your wine.

In the winemaking world, exclusive of the kit world, “secondary fermentation” refers to MLF (Malolactic Fermentation), a bacterial fermentation that converts harsh malic acid into smoother lactic acid. Most of us who make red wine from grapes conduct MLF either during alcoholic fermentation, or immediately following AF, by adding the bacteria to cause this to occur. Kmeta inhibits MLF, so we seek to minimize, if not avoid its use until MLF is completed. The presence of sorbate in a wine that undergoes MLF will ruin the wine, period. So the answer where kits are NOT concerned is no Kmeta (or very little) and no sorbate, period.

Hop over to the kit world. In this world, secondary fermentation doesn’t refer to MLF, but instead, to the completion of alcoholic in a SECOND vessel, typically a carboy or demijohn. They call this “secondary fermentation”, even though it refers to the completion of alcoholic fermentation in a second vessel. This terminology discrepancy created by the kit instructions is the source of much confusion. Even in the kit world, no Kmeta or sorbate need be used until AF is complete.

Short and sweet, with kits and grapes and fruits and vegetables, alcoholic fermentation is conducted until the wine is nearly out of sugar, then we move our wine to a new vessel to finish AF, a vessel that helps us prevent too much oxygen exposure as fermentation ceases, and the CO2 that protects it from oxygen is no longer being created. No Kmeta or sorbate needs to be used until your AF is 100% complete. Sorbate is unnecessary if AF has used up all of your sugar and you don’t plan to add sugar to make your wine sweeter.

Dear John, thankyou for such a speedy, and thorough response. It has helped greatly! I am going to print it off and add to my WT binder. The three I referenced in my earlier message are not from kits.

 

[Johnd]

. . . also, how do i know that mlf is happening? do i have to add a culture to the wine? will it happen naturally? I have an Apple, Kiwi, Strawberry, from 3/24, that is still bubbling. Degassing or MLF (1/40 sec.)?

MLF can be detected by the production of many very small bubbles, sometimes no bubbles at all. The best way to know if it is happening / progressing is through the use of chromatography testing or malic acid test strips.

Most of us add cultures to get MLF going, but it can also be started by putting your wine in a barrel that had MLF conducted in it previously. In many winemaking regions and wineries the bacteria for MLF and yeast for fermenting are residents and neither are added.

I’d say the odds are against your bubbling being MLF, more likely just releasing CO2 from fermentation, but it is not impossible. Your wine is only a candidate for MLF up until the time you add sulfite and continue your regular sulfite maintenance. The best commercial strains of MLB can only tolerate 50 ppm sulfite, if you ever run upon an indigenous strain, it, like other unwanted bacteria, will be handled by your sulfite.

 

[BernardSmith]

Two quick thoughts. It is very unlikely that you will get a spontaneous MLF happening as this is a bacterial process and not a true fermentation. The bacteria are bacteria that love malic acid and when they do their thing they convert the malic to lactic acid (malic being a far more "sharp" acid than lactic).
These bacteria in the presence of sorbate produce an aroma that is similar to geraniums and this aroma most people find very unpleasant. Bottom line is that if you are planning for MLF you want to avoid stabilizing your wine with sorbates.

https://winemakermag.com/wine-wizard/1122-potassium-sorbate-post-mlf

 

[justsipn]

OK, just checking for confirmation on my rhubarb wine. I started it on April 4th. (5 weeks). I racked it on April 29th (12 days ago). I plan on racking it again next week (around the 3 week mark from the last racking).

So, here's what I'm checking on. There is absolutely nothing happening other than more settling at the bottom of fine lees. I took the airlock off over the weekend and it still has a sweet wine smell to it. The color is a very nice rhubarb pink and it keeps getting clearer with the settling.

So....everything still good? Just do nothing till I rack it again around the 20th?