A Couple Beginner Questions

[Rice_Guy]

Water has no TA and you did a six gallon, therefore my grams of acid content will be about 5 times higher than yours, yup I juiced 23 kg. You will not need to backsweeten much as I do. This is a style, I am aiming for knock your sox off impact.
One variation a year back was peach rhurbarb. At low sugar it’s a rhurbarb yet at high sugar it was a peach. Humm, I guess I play with my food. Crabs, they are a short term way to find a bitter sweet apple feedstock for traditional balanced flavor cider.

The crab apple surprises me just because of the flavor. . . . .This batch has actually 10 lbs of rhubard, 2 mix of strawberry, raspberry and blueberry.

 

[Rocky]

Rhurbarb has consistently been an extremely easy wine for me to clear, It is very low on pectin. @justsipn i like your color, intense for a non colored wine.

Thoughts for your next season; The rhurbarb I have been putting out has had 3% black raspberry for a blush color. , , , The plan for this year is one batch with 5% crab apple, crab will also create a blush and add tannic notes like a red grape. , , , I have used minimal water in rhurbarb blush which produces a high TA (1.1- 1.2%) and requires back sweetening to around 1.015. ,,, with the high TA low pH I have had it stuck and don't think it ever goes below 1.000, 2018 season stopped at 1.015 So I didn’t ever sweeten.
.

That was not my understanding re clearing and I stand corrected. As I said I don't generally make wine from anything other than grapes. Thank you for the correction. Not too old to learn but I have to be getting close.

 

[justsipn]

OK, basically 9 weeks into my rhubarb wine. Racked it twice. The last time was two weeks ago. I'm surprised that stuff (Lees??) are still settling out. But, I'm guessing that means it's clarifying even more. Color still looks great.

So, questions:

a) If the specific gravity isn't changing, that means it's not fermenting anymore...correct? But, it should be a better wine in November than it is now. So....if it's not fermenting, what exactly is it doing between now and then to make it better?

b) Do I do anything between now and then? I plan on racking it again right before bottling. (or, basically as I bottle it?). Do you check the SG or PH as it's aging in the carboy? Taste it??? If so, how often???

This wine making thing takes patience.

PS...I topped off the carboy all the way to the neck as recommended above. So, there shouldn't be hardly any oxygen in it.

 

[Chuck E]

A) Wine is a living thing. The changes that occur during bulk aging have to do with chemical reactions taking place. Things like polymerization, micro-oxidation and others. Fermentation is just the beginning of the process.

B) Most of us probably rack it a week before bottling. At that time, you make sure to get your K-meta levels just right. I don't check the SG during bulk aging, I will test the pH before my last K-meta addition.

And I sneak a little taste every now and again...

 

[G259]

I would rack again, 3 months apart, then sweeten and bottle. I have tested the SG of commercial wines, and it ranged from an SG of .995 (Sav. Blanc) to 1.005 (Reisling). However I THINK that, it might matter how high the PH was or how much acid blend was added. I had a wine that I 'slipped' on the sugar addition, and it was way too high for me, I was told here to add acid blend, and sure enough it worked! The sugar was still there, but the acid blend balanced it, so you almost couldn't tell. That's why you 'bench test' while adding sugar, you can't go backward, so add a little at a time, then sample (I love bench testing!)

 

[Rice_Guy]

Wine making ——— for quality ———takes patience
* You could be drinking now if you wanted, you would need to take actions to stabelize since you should expect live yeast for about 9 months! Not seeing a change in gravity means that metabolism has slowed ... the yeast are stressed/ resting/ waiting for a change in conditions/ if you sweeten your rhurbarb this could create an explosion.
* I probably am a lazy wine maker, last year’s rhurbarb was racked only three times. I will not rack based on a calendar, l will rack based on need, ie has a lot of solids settled and it is ready/ compact. Currently there is a nine month old cyser going with a solid cork, the plan is let it sit a year (or maybe two) before I open it again. ,,, I won’t worry about topping off or proper size carboy this way, ,,, peach and plum (high pectin fruits) take forever too.
* @Chuck E said expect to add potassium metabisulphite when you open the carboy, it is living, exposure to oxygen damages the wine (unless you are targeting sherry flavor) If you use campden a 0.5 gram tablet does 5 gallons otherwise 0.1 gram powder per gallon.

 

[justsipn]

Wine making ——— for quality ———takes patience
* You could be drinking now if you wanted, you would need to take actions to stabelize since you should expect live yeast for about 9 months! Not seeing a change in gravity means that metabolism has slowed ... the yeast are stressed/ resting/ waiting for a change in conditions/ if you sweeten your rhurbarb this could create an explosion.
* I probably am a lazy wine maker, last year’s rhurbarb was racked only three times. I will not rack based on a calendar, l will rack based on need, ie has a lot of solids settled and it is ready/ compact. Currently there is a nine month old cyser going with a solid cork, the plan is let it sit a year (or maybe two) before I open it again. ,,, I won’t worry about topping off or proper size carboy this way, ,,, peach and plum (high pectin fruits) take forever too.
* @Chuck E said expect to add potassium metabisulphite when you open the carboy, it is living, exposure to oxygen damages the wine (unless you are targeting sherry flavor) If you use campden a 0.5 gram tablet does 5 gallons otherwise 0.1 gram powder per gallon.

When you say the bolded. Do you literally mean every time you take the airlock off no matter for what or for how short of time? I have only added at the beginning then when I racked it.

 

[Rice_Guy]

My use of meta has evolved with time. Ten years ago I wouldn’t, ie was sloppy with meta. The result was a percentage of the wine had burn in the back of the throat feel. ,,, Then I went into assume that there is zero and add 25 ppm every activity. ,,, About a year back the wife of a vinters club member mentioned that she could taste SO2 so I had over done it.
Currently any activity more than a month apart will get meta. Logic for this, the quantity of oxygen needed to saturate water is approximately equal to the normal head space on a 750 ml bottle, ie a small volume of air is a significant risk of oxidation, ,,, oxidation isn’t an instantaneous reaction so I assume there is some cut off less than a month where fresh oxygen it isnt an additional risk factor.

When you say the bolded. Do you literally mean every time you take the airlock off no matter for what? I have only added at the beginning then when I racked it.

With a vinmetrica today I should do a project where I track SO2 before and after typical activities, to better gage risk.
For those who own the DO meter I am curious if anyone has done before and after to gage risk.

 

[justsipn]

Currently any activity more than a month apart will get meta.

So, since I've added it three times in less than two months, I should be fine. Going forward, if I check the SG and taste it in a couple months, I should add some when I open it.

 

[Rice_Guy]

In a few months it will be wise to add 25 ppm.
Our high limit is folks will taste SO2 at about 200 ppm. If we have three additions to date we never get close to 200 so only .1% of customers or so will taste sulphite.

Without a measured number we are guessing about protective level. Red grape wines do well at holding SO2. Fruits seem to oxidize excessively. , ,,, All in all I have done what you have done and only got serious off taste with fruits after a year age.

So, since I've added it three times in less than two months, I should be fine. Going forward, if I check the SG and taste it in a couple months, I should add some when I open it.

 

[justsipn]

In a few months it will be wise to add 25 ppm.
Our high limit is folks will taste SO2 at about 200 ppm. If we have three additions to date we never get close to 200 so only .1% of customers or so will taste sulphite.

Without a measured number we are guessing about protective level. Red grape wines do well at holding SO2. Fruits seem to oxidize excessively. , ,,, All in all I have done what you have done and only got serious off taste with fruits after a year age.

Just for clarification on what you are saying here. If I've added meta three times, I've added 75 ppm. The max you would ever do is add meta 8 times (8 x 25 = 200).

Correct?

 

[Rice_Guy]

* I am a firm believer that most home wine makers will improve the finished product by using the maximum meta at each transfer. ie oxidation is the biggest risk factor we face with 7 gallon carboys, and the primary tool fight chemical oxidation is metabisulphite, ,,, or learning tricks to improve my technique whenever I open a carboy.
* I am not commercial so I probably had more than 200 ppm on the one cherry wine, that a wife at club meeting tasted and told me what the defect was, uneducated I wouldn’t have paid attention to the flavor. At some point, I will go over 200 again, ex if I try to save a wine with white film floating on the surface
* From a commercial point of view 8 mechanical interventions are a lot, most of the products life is sealed away from air. As a home wine maker who doesn’t barrel age my normal might be 4 mechanical interventions,,,, it never gets to be an issue.
* All this said my mindset (background) is weird, I don’t follow recipes, ,,, usually. I try to ask what is the FDA or health department rule that a recipe is encouraging me to accomplish.

Just for clarification on what you are saying here. If I've added meta three times, I've added 75 ppm. The max you would ever do is add meta 8 times (8 x 25 = 200)

 

[justsipn]

* I am a firm believer that most home wine makers will improve the finished product by using the maximum meta at each transfer. ie oxidation is the biggest risk factor we face with 7 gallon carboys, and the primary tool fight chemical oxidation is metabisulphite, ,,, or learning tricks to improve my technique whenever I open a carboy.
* I am not commercial so I probably had more than 200 ppm on the one cherry wine, that a wife at club meeting tasted and told me what the defect was, uneducated I wouldn’t have paid attention to the flavor. At some point, I will go over 200 again, ex if I try to save a wine with white film floating on the surface
* From a commercial point of view 8 mechanical interventions are a lot, most of the products life is sealed away from air. As a home wine maker who doesn’t barrel age my normal might be 4 mechanical interventions,,,, it never gets to be an issue.
* All this said my mindset (background) is weird, I don’t follow recipes, ,,, usually. I try to ask what is the FDA or health department rule that a recipe is encouraging me to accomplish.

That was my thought. There is no way I'm going to mess with this wine 8+ times. At most, I guess I might rack it again in three months, once one week before bottling and then bottling. That will probably be sometime in late October or November. So, I guess I could see me adding more meta twice more.

 

[justsipn]

Ok, racked my wine again as planned three weeks after last time.

.996 SG
3.39 PH
13.04 ABV
Very nice pale rhubarb color.
clearing very nice.

Nice fruity flavor....except one thing. It seems to have a part of its flavor as somewhat of more of an alcohol flavor than your typical wine. My wife said it’s dry. But, to me it’s different than a dry taste. It’s not a spoiled taste

So, question, is this typical at this stage and will this mellow as it ages over the next 5-6 months? won’t touch now again till then.

It was started on April 4th.

I’m probably going to back sweeten it.

 

[Scooter68]

New wine normally is sharper on the tongue for a variety of reasons including Needing to complete normal aging which will round off the 'sharpness' and secondly to permit the CO2 to dissipate - it also makes a new wine sharper on the tongue.
Dryness is the final step. A little back-sweetening will resolve that and that doesn't have to make it sweet, just to help bring back more of the original fruit flavor.
This is purely personal - But I would wait until just before bottling time to do the back-sweetening. That way 1) the sorbate isn't going to age out as soon, & 2) The sharpness will be gone making more accurate back-sweetening possible. It's one of those personal choices along with how long to age it. Folks who've actually made Rhubarb wine can probably give you better estimates on how long the wine should age.
5-6 months is a good place to start and the means you should plan on one more racking at least between now and the end of aging (Most folks rack about every 3 months.)

 

[justsipn]

Thanks for the input and I was hoping that would be the case with the taste. I do plan on back sweetening right before bottling.

 

[winemaker81]

I agree with the others -- post fermentation, don't rack any more often then every 3 months. Some folks rack every 6 months and seem to do ok.

How long to bulk age? That varies dramatically from 2 weeks to 2 years. For non-grape wines, I typically do 3 to 6 months from start to bottling, unless there is a reason to keep it longer.

Non-grape wines generally benefit from some level of back sweetening, it brings out the fruit and reduces or eliminates the astringency some dry fruit wines have.

Bench tests are a good idea -- add a small amount of sugar to a small amount of wine, stir well and taste. When you get to the point where you think it needs just a bit more, stop. Extrapolate the amount of sugar for the large batch and start adding.

I strongly recommend adding the sugar (or sugar syrup) in small amounts, stir well, and taste. If you miscalculated the amount of sugar needed, you'll catch it before you add too much. Remember, it's a lot easier to add more sugar than to take some out .....

A drill-mounted stirring rod helps greatly in ensuring the sugar is mixed in.

 

[DizzyIzzy]

Wine making ——— for quality ———takes patience
* You could be drinking now if you wanted, you would need to take actions to stabelize since you should expect live yeast for about 9 months! Not seeing a change in gravity means that metabolism has slowed ... the yeast are stressed/ resting/ waiting for a change in conditions/ if you sweeten your rhurbarb this could create an explosion.
* I probably am a lazy wine maker, last year’s rhurbarb was racked only three times. I will not rack based on a calendar, l will rack based on need, ie has a lot of solids settled and it is ready/ compact. Currently there is a nine month old cyser going with a solid cork, the plan is let it sit a year (or maybe two) before I open it again. ,,, I won’t worry about topping off or proper size carboy this way, ,,, peach and plum (high pectin fruits) take forever too.
* @Chuck E said expect to add potassium metabisulphite when you open the carboy, it is living, exposure to oxygen damages the wine (unless you are targeting sherry flavor) If you use campden a 0.5 gram tablet does 5 gallons otherwise 0.1 gram powder per gallon.

Riceguy..................Did I understand you correctly that one Campden tab can treat 5 gallons? If that is so I have screwed up royally because I added five Campden tabs to a 5 gallon batch. Is there anyway I can reverse/treat that batch?...........................Dizzy

 

[KCCam]

Riceguy..................Did I understand you correctly that one Campden tab can treat 5 gallons? If that is so I have screwed up royally because I added five Campden tabs to a 5 gallon batch. Is there anyway I can reverse/treat that batch?...........................Dizzy

I believe that dose is normal when adding to your must at the very beginning when using fresh fruit, 24 hours before pitching the yeast and after fermentation with sorbate to stabilize the wine to prevent further fermentation and to protect it from oxidation. Then about every 3 months or so when you rack wine that is bulk aging.

 

[cmason1957]

Riceguy..................Did I understand you correctly that one Campden tab can treat 5 gallons? If that is so I have screwed up royally because I added five Campden tabs to a 5 gallon batch. Is there anyway I can reverse/treat that batch?...........................Dizzy

no, you didn't mess up campden tablets are ONE per gallon and that's added at the beginning and/or also at the every three months racking. Or 1/4 tsp of KMeta.