Acidity

[Rez]

Because of inaccessibility of "acid blend" I think that I should find an alternative. As I concieve there is 6 kind of acids in wine
1.Tartaric acid
2. Malic acid
3. Citric acid
4. Lactic acid
5. Acetic acid
6. Succinic acid
I know that we can replace fresh lemon juice with citric acid. Do you have any experience about using stuff like that for replacing?
(P.s: I think 5 and 6 are not necessary so much)

 

[cmason1957]

If you are making grape based wines, tartaric acid is the only acid I would add. Why add malic to a grape wine, when you are probably going to try to remove it all with MLF (at least for most red wines and some white wines). In addition, some types of man-made malic acid cannot be converted by malolactic bacteria. Citric acid can cause other issues with Malolactic bacteria. namely acetic acid. In addition excess tartaric acid can, to some extent be removed via cold stabilization.

If making fruit wines, then the predominate acid of the fruit being used is what should probably be added. Like apple, probably adding malic acid makes some sense. Most other fruits are higher in Citric (citrus fruits oddly enough) and Malic acid.

I don't believe there is a place for the last three you have listed at all, it won't hurt my feelings at all for someone to tell me I am wrong about lactic acid.

Oh and don't forget Ascorbic Acid.

Ascorbic acid is a quick-acting and powerful antioxidant that is used in white winemaking to protect against light and short aerations, such as racking and bottling. It works by rapidly converting dissolved oxygen into hydrogen peroxide before it has a chance to react with oxidative enzymes and cause browning. However, this hydrogen peroxide itself needs to be removed from the wine in order to avoid the very phenomenon that was trying to be avoided in the first place, namely oxidizing the wine. The answer lies in always making sure that the free SO2 levels are correct, both before the ascorbic addition is to be made and after. https://morewinemaking.com/products/ascorbic-acid.html​

 

[sour_grapes]

If you are making grape based wines, tartaric acid is the only acid I would add.

Craig, he is in a place where winemaking supplies are hard to come by, and he is looking for alternatives.

@Rez , you may not need any acid at all. What makes you think so?

If I were in your position, I think I would make my wine without any added acid. Then I would do bench trials with lemon juice, adding no juice to one glass, a bit to the second, a bit more to the next one, etc. Then see which one you like best.

 

[Rez]

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[Rez]

Craig, he is in a place where winemaking supplies are hard to come by, and he is looking for alternatives.

@Rez , you may not need any acid at all. What makes you think so?

If I were in your position, I think I would make my wine without any added acid. Then I would do bench trials with lemon juice, adding no juice to one glass, a bit to the second, a bit more to the next one, etc. Then see which one you like best.

If I wanted using grapes (as I did before and it's very hard in my situation) I wouldn't need any additives. But I want to use concentrate. So I have to use these additives to have a better taste

 

[Rez]

If you are making grape based wines, tartaric acid is the only acid I would add. Why add malic to a grape wine, when you are probably going to try to remove it all with MLF (at least for most red wines and some white wines). In addition, some types of man-made malic acid cannot be converted by malolactic bacteria. Citric acid can cause other issues with Malolactic bacteria. namely acetic acid. In addition excess tartaric acid can, to some extent be removed via cold stabilization.

If making fruit wines, then the predominate acid of the fruit being used is what should probably be added. Like apple, probably adding malic acid makes some sense. Most other fruits are higher in Citric (citrus fruits oddly enough) and Malic acid.

I don't believe there is a place for the last three you have listed at all, it won't hurt my feelings at all for someone to tell me I am wrong about lactic acid.

Oh and don't forget Ascorbic Acid.

Ascorbic acid is a quick-acting and powerful antioxidant that is used in white winemaking to protect against light and short aerations, such as racking and bottling. It works by rapidly converting dissolved oxygen into hydrogen peroxide before it has a chance to react with oxidative enzymes and cause browning. However, this hydrogen peroxide itself needs to be removed from the wine in order to avoid the very phenomenon that was trying to be avoided in the first place, namely oxidizing the wine. The answer lies in always making sure that the free SO2 levels are correct, both before the ascorbic addition is to be made and after. https://morewinemaking.com/products/ascorbic-acid.html​

Thank you for your respond
I had no information about malic acid and MLF. I red about it and you're right. Why I should add malic acid to my vessel? sorry for my silly question.
Actually I want to make wine with concentrate and according to your reply I think tartaric acid wil be enough for grape wine (in spite of the fact that I use concentrate)
And finally is there any alternative for tartaric acid? Or I should search in chemical stores for edible tartaric acid?

 

[Chuck E]

Thank you for your respond
I had no information about malic acid and MLF. I red about it and you're right. Why I should add malic acid to my vessel? sorry for my silly question.
Actually I want to make wine with concentrate and according to your reply I think tartaric acid wil be enough for grape wine (in spite of the fact that I use concentrate)
And finally is there any alternative for tartaric acid? Or I should search in chemical stores for edible tartaric acid?

I have made wine from concentrates, and I found that I did not need to adjust the acid.

 

[cmason1957]

I always forget who is in allowed wine making areas and who isn't. Maybe we need a something on the user blurb to help me remember. (and it is all about me, isn't it??)

Anyway to answer the question, I have never tried this, but I did find this information - if you require tartaric acid and you don't have it, using cream of tartar might work. For every teaspoon of tartaric acid, replace with two teaspoons of cream of tartar. However, using tartaric acid will produce better results. I think if I were to try using this in a pinch, I would grind the cream of tartar up and mix it with some wine to help incorporate it.

@Rez When you say concentrates, are you talking fruit concentrates or grape juice concentrates, if it is grape juice concentrates, I would agree, try without adding anything extra. If it is fruit concentrates, you gotta add some acid to bring the pH down, citric is probably your best bet, assuming lemons are easy to come by.

 

[Rez]

I always forget who is in allowed wine making areas and who isn't. Maybe we need a something on the user blurb to help me remember. (and it is all about me, isn't it??)

Anyway to answer the question, I have never tried this, but I did find this information - if you require tartaric acid and you don't have it, using cream of tartar might work. For every teaspoon of tartaric acid, replace with two teaspoons of cream of tartar. However, using tartaric acid will produce better results. I think if I were to try using this in a pinch, I would grind the cream of tartar up and mix it with some wine to help incorporate it.

@Rez When you say concentrates, are you talking fruit concentrates or grape juice concentrates, if it is grape juice concentrates, I would agree, try without adding anything extra. If it is fruit concentrates, you gotta add some acid to bring the pH down, citric is probably your best bet, assuming lemons are easy to come by.

Wow. Using cream of tartar was intelligent and also innovative. Thank you sir. (Althogh I do my best to find edible tartaric acid)
I'm sorry. I think that when I ask a question, I do not ask it properly and completely. Beg your pardon. My English is not very good Yes, I meant grape concentrate. So for other concentrate lemon is enough. What about lime? Doesn't lime have more citric acid than lemon?

 

[Rez]

I have made wine from concentrates, and I found that I did not need to adjust the acid.

What about oak chips? Or probably tannin powder?

 

[crabjoe]

What about oak chips? Or probably tannin powder?

I'm new at this, but I'm thinking you need to start making small batches to know what you might need or like.

You might hate tannin or oak in your wine. You might find acid levels vary from what juice you get there versus what others get from other places or even brands.

I'm thinking it time to start making wine, whatever type it maybe.

Good luck!

 

[Chuck E]

What about oak chips? Or probably tannin powder?

I do add tannin powder to my wines made from concentrates. I also use oak spirals as I age them. I guess you could substitute oak chips if you could not obtain any other oak products. I don't have my notes here in my office to give you the amounts I used.

 

[Rice_Guy]

* I would never use acetic acid. For reference the bottle here is pH 2.53/ TA 6.0%. The flavor is bad in excess. Succinic acid has a sharp flavor like citric, it is OK.
* Acids are readily available in the food world, ex:
Cornelian cherry pH 2.87/ TA 4.22%
Cranberry 2.69/. 3.26%
Black currant. 2.85%
Gooseberry. 3.07. 2.93%
Joustaberry. 2.93/. 8.35%. (Early picked)
Joustaberry. 2.84/. 4.35%. (Late picked)
Orange juice concentrate 4.08/ 2.20%
Red sumach. 2.87/. 2.78%. (tea 1 berry to 2 water, sumach is a middle eastern seasoning)
To make “organic” concept wine I mix high TA with low TA foods to reach target TA. , , , , In concept if you want to spit or wash your mouth out because it is sour it is a good source of organic acid. Green fruit typically has high acid, note joustaberry.
* Phosphoric acid is readily available if soda is made where you are, has a very clean flavor.
* Some books note that gypsum has been used to lower pH. It produces sulphuric acid which again is a strong acid. The down side is the bitter flavor if used in excess.

Because of inaccessibility of "acid blend" I think that I should find an alternative. As I concieve there is 6 kind of acids in wine
1.Tartaric acid
2. Malic acid
3. Citric acid
4. Lactic acid
5. Acetic acid
6. Succinic acid
I know that we can replace fresh lemon juice with citric acid. Do you have any experience about using stuff like that for replacing?
(P.s: I think 5 and 6 are not necessary so much)

From a technical point I like pH of less than 3.5, , , it helps yeast and keeps a lot of other things from growing. I use TA primarily for flavor with a target of 0.6% to 1.00%. We can make pleasing flavors with lower TA ex cola soda with pH 2.5 and TA of 0.2%
Look for pleasing flavors in starting concentrate. Everything goes back to flavor, , not numbers in a laboratory.

 

[Rez]

* I would never use acetic acid. For reference the bottle here is pH 2.53/ TA 6.0%. The flavor is bad in excess. Succinic acid has a sharp flavor like citric, it is OK.
* Acids are readily available in the food world, ex:
Cornelian cherry pH 2.87/ TA 4.22%
Cranberry 2.69/. 3.26%
Black currant. 2.85%
Gooseberry. 3.07. 2.93%
Joustaberry. 2.93/. 8.35%. (Early picked)
Joustaberry. 2.84/. 4.35%. (Late picked)
Orange juice concentrate 4.08/ 2.20%
Red sumach. 2.87/. 2.78%. (tea 1 berry to 2 water, sumach is a middle eastern seasoning)
To make “organic” concept wine I mix high TA with low TA foods to reach target TA. , , , , In concept if you want to spit or wash your mouth out because it is sour it is a good source of organic acid. Green fruit typically has high acid, note joustaberry.
* Phosphoric acid is readily available if soda is made where you are, has a very clean flavor.
* Some books note that gypsum has been used to lower pH. It produces sulphuric acid which again is a strong acid. The down side is the bitter flavor if used in excess.

From a technical point I like pH of less than 3.5, , , it helps yeast and keeps a lot of other things from growing. I use TA primarily for flavor with a target of 0.6% to 1.00%. We can make pleasing flavors with lower TA ex cola soda with pH 2.5 and TA of 0.2%
Look for pleasing flavors in starting concentrate. Everything goes back to flavor, , not numbers in a laboratory.

Thank you for your complete explanation. Just one question. Do wines basically contain phosphoric acid? And it mesns I can use coke in my vessel?

 

[crabjoe]

Thank you for your complete explanation. Just one question. Do wines basically contain phosphoric acid? And it mesns I can use coke in my vessel?

You can make wine from whatever that will ferment, even coke. I've heard of it being done, but I also heard it doesn't taste good.

I googled phosphoric acid in wine and it seems you can use it, but it's not allowed in the US for commercial wines. Nor does it sound like a good idea since it can change the taste.

Good luck!

 

[Rice_Guy]

The question I would ask is why are you wanting to add an acid? TA? PH?

Thank you for your complete explanation. Just one question. Do wines basically contain phosphoric acid? And it means I can use coke in my vessel?

* For the purpose of pushing pH to the range of 3.2 to 3.5 phosphoric will work. It is a strong acid therefore it will take fewer molecules to push the pH and the Titratable Acidity target will probably be low. This translates to a thin or weaker flavor balance.
* Natural wines do not contain phosphoric acid. This is primarily an industrial chemical. Lots of it is used in the US food supply. As mentioned cola sodas will have it, my factory folks used it by the truck to whiten starch as a process aid. Other industries do pH control with it.
* As cmaison notes cream of tartar can be used to provide tartaric molecules. Tartaric is a favored acid since it is a less strong acid and we can add lots of it to build TA (depth of flavor). It has one potassium and one acid in the molecule and will work on the pK at 4.34. If using it I would expect to still adjust pH with a stronger acid as sulphuric (gypsum) or phosphoric or citric or even hydrochloric (although this would be unusual in food systems) to push the pH to the target range, , , , it wouldn’t take a lot.
* Coke is fairly dilute. I wouldn’t use it to change pH, I have used reagent grade acids. Yes coke could be fermented but the pH is low enough that yeast will not grow well in it.

In this thread you have mentioned concentrate which can have a good pH and TA without adding acid blend. From a number or target point what fruit concentrate? ie are you adjusting when it is already OK for flavor.

 

[sour_grapes]

Let me reiterate that I do not believe that there is any reason to think that you will need to add acid. You are concerned because you are using concentrate. Well, when they concentrate the juice, they don't remove the acid! In fact, depending on how much water vs. sugar you add, you may wind up with too much acid.

I stand by my suggestion: adjust the concentrate with water and/or sugar to get a reasonable starting SG, ferment it, then see how it tastes as far as acidity is concerned. If it needs more zing, add some lemon juice.

 

[Rez]

You can make wine from whatever that will ferment, even coke. I've heard of it being done, but I also heard it doesn't taste good.

I googled phosphoric acid in wine and it seems you can use it, but it's not allowed in the US for commercial wines. Nor does it sound like a good idea since it can change the taste.

Good luck!

Sorry for late response. The whole internet of my country was down. I had no access to internet. Thank you for your reply

 

[Rez]

The question I would ask is why are you wanting to add an acid? TA? PH?

* For the purpose of pushing pH to the range of 3.2 to 3.5 phosphoric will work. It is a strong acid therefore it will take fewer molecules to push the pH and the Titratable Acidity target will probably be low. This translates to a thin or weaker flavor balance.
* Natural wines do not contain phosphoric acid. This is primarily an industrial chemical. Lots of it is used in the US food supply. As mentioned cola sodas will have it, my factory folks used it by the truck to whiten starch as a process aid. Other industries do pH control with it.
* As cmaison notes cream of tartar can be used to provide tartaric molecules. Tartaric is a favored acid since it is a less strong acid and we can add lots of it to build TA (depth of flavor). It has one potassium and one acid in the molecule and will work on the pK at 4.34. If using it I would expect to still adjust pH with a stronger acid as sulphuric (gypsum) or phosphoric or citric or even hydrochloric (although this would be unusual in food systems) to push the pH to the target range, , , , it wouldn’t take a lot.
* Coke is fairly dilute. I wouldn’t use it to change pH, I have used reagent grade acids. Yes coke could be fermented but the pH is low enough that yeast will not grow well in it.

In this thread you have mentioned concentrate which can have a good pH and TA without adding acid blend. From a number or target point what fruit concentrate? ie are you adjusting when it is already OK for flavor.

Sorry for late response. The whole internet of my country was down. I had no access to internet.
I was told that if I make wine with concentrate my wine will be thin. So I thought that maybe acid levels are not satisfying (although I need acid blend for some bunch of recipes which I found on Jack Keller's site)
Is gypsum edible? And I'm confused about coke because of my weak English. You meant the acids which are provided by coke is too strong that may disable the fermenting process and yeast performances? (Also I didn't understand this phrase: "I have used reagent grade acids")
And finally I meant grape concentrate

 

[Rez]

Let me reiterate that I do not believe that there is any reason to think that you will need to add acid. You are concerned because you are using concentrate. Well, when they concentrate the juice, they don't remove the acid! In fact, depending on how much water vs. sugar you add, you may wind up with too much acid.

I stand by my suggestion: adjust the concentrate with water and/or sugar to get a reasonable starting SG, ferment it, then see how it tastes as far as acidity is concerned. If it needs more zing, add some lemon juice.

Sorry for late response. As I said to the others the whole internet of my country was down. I had no access to internet.
I was told that the wine which is made by concentrate would be thin. I thought that if I handle the acidity level of my wine then it wouldn't be thin anymore. (Although I needed acid blends for some recipes which I found on Jack Keller's site)