Added Clarifiers Prior to Bulk Aging

[pracz]

I realize that the MM site recommends that you not add the clarifiers if you intend to bulk age. However, I added them to my kit (MM Renaissance Old Vine Cab) this weekend with the intention of still letting the wine bulk age for only about 3 months. Is that a problem? Should I not let it sit that long now that I added the clarifiers?

In general, does anyone out there clarify the wine and then let it bulk age?

Thanks,

Pete

 

[Bert]

Most of my kit wines have had clarifers added to them before bulk aging....I do try to watch how much sediment they get and rack if they get around 1/2 in. of seditment or three months....which ever comes first...

 

[robie]

Of the kits I have made, if I remember correctly only Mosti recommends not adding the clarifiers before bulk aging.

Of course we typically should follow the instructions, but it does seem logical to wait until a few weeks before bottling to clarify. If you bulk age, much of the sediment may drop out on its own, such that in several months, in some cases you may not even need to clarify, especially with reds.

It would be interesting to have the opinion of the more experienced white-wine makers about whether or not white wines should at some point always be clarified, regardless.

The WineMaker's Magazine's special wine kit addition indicated that if you do bulk age and the wine clears well and you do decide to clarify anyway, you can get by with less than the full dose of clarifier.

 

[RickC]

Let me add another what-if to this mix for expert opinion. For those like me who do not filter, does adding clarifiers early help make sure the wine is as clear as possible? On my most recent batches, Istabilized and added clarifiers, waited 3 weeks and racked off solids followed by continued bulk aging up to 9 months total. If the clarifiers don't alter flavor or body is there a down side?

 

[robie]

I don't think I qualify as the "expert", but we do have a few on this forum and I hope they will comment.

I don't clarify before bulk aging, but since I don't filter either, I do have 2 questions:
(You added clarifiers earlier, then racked off the finings after 3 weeks)
Were some of these kits whites and some reds?
At the end of 9 months of bulk aging, was there much sediment (finings) at the bottom of the carboy?

 

[robie]

Sorry, my last question was for rickc.

 

[ibglowin]

I have been adding my clarifiers (both red and white) at ~ day 20. I usually let them sit for a few months and then rack off the fines (when I "fine" time......). At that point I have been continuing to bulk age. The CC instructions say to add them at day 20 regardless of if you are bulk aging.

My kits with grape packs have continued to drop sediment even after racking off the fines. Not a boatload but trace amounts that are clearly visible on the bottom. If you are careful when racking just before bottling they have been sticky enough to stay put and not plug up my Vinbite filter.

I have filtered everything so far whites and reds, All have tasted great and I could certainly not detect any noticeable loss of flavor by any stretch of the imagination.

One thing I hate is not noticing (especially in a red) a chunk of sediment in a commercial bottle and almost choking on the grit. YUK!

I plan on filtering everything just in case I enter some of them into competition next year.

 

[JimCook]

There should be no loss of any flavor with filtering as it's a physical removal of particles by essentially using a screen (like panning for gold). The organic molecules that are responsible for aromas and flavors would need a pretty darn tight screen to be able to get them to be filtered out. In fact, I know you can filter down to the bacterial level, but that is still huge compared to some molecules.


Fining has the chance of binding to some of these flavor/aroma molecules but that really depends on polarity (think poles of a magnet) of the molecules and the type of fining agent used, although there are differing opinions as to whether this will affect the end aroma/flavor volume of the wine. The fining agents in kits are added to be able to help the kits be ready to head to bottling faster. Time will also act as a fining agent.


I have not filtered any of my wines but I do let them sit in the carboy for some time. After several months, I have not noticed a measureable difference in the amount of sediment at the bottom of the carboy but I have noticed that potassium bitartrate crystals settle it out in some of the wines. It's not a lot, but they are noticeable as they seem like hard plastic beads in the residue at the bottom of the carboy. As Mike noted, there will be a fine dusting of sediment that can fall out over time as opposed to another boatload.


In general, I do not add any other fining agents to my wine other than Bentonite. Given enough time, I have not seen any difference between a filtered wine and one of the wines that I have made in this fashion in terms of clarity.


Know also that sediment can continue to drop in bottles as they age, even with wines that were fined. Wine is a living thing from a certain point of view - it changes and develops, grows and ages and then dies over time as the chemicals inside of it react with one another and with oxygen that seeps in through the cork over the course of time. Most people will readily drink their wines well before they reach a state of oxidation in the bottle, and this could take years and years depending on the wine.


RickC - I normally wait around 9 months or so to head to bottling and have noticed no problems without fining or filtering. I am not advocating that this procedure is better than others as I believe it really comes down to preference (filtering and/or fining). But if time is on your side and you can use it, it can help you.


- Jim

 

[robie]

Mike,
I just finished a great bottle of Rodney Strong Reserve (, about 1999???)
One of the best cabs I have ever had. It had to have had a full tablespoon of sediment in it. Fortunately, it was stuck fast to the sides in multiple places. Apparently it had been turned once or twice during bottle aging.

JimCook,
When do you add the bentonite for fining - soon after fermentation or a few weeks before bottling? Asked another way, before bulk aging or after?

 

[ibglowin]

Richard, see my new post under friendly chit chat on the current state of Cabernet Sauvignon.

BTW, Bentonite is usually added when you prepare the must up front.

 

[JimCook]

Richard,


Bentonite can be added pre- or post-fermentation. I personally have added it upfront, which is the presentation that most kits follow. The logic there tends to fall under the 'a little now or up to a lot later' mindset. Since during fermentation there are so many microcurrents in the wine (CO2 venting, yeasties running amok, temperature variances, etc.), the Bentonite added pre-fermentation is in essence 'scrubbed' through the wine and has a greater chance of performing its desired task, which is to bond to specifically charged particles and then drag them down into the dregs of the mix when fermentation ends.


- Jim

 

[robie]

Jim,
Oh, I took it that you also utilized bentonite post fermentation, so I was asking if you did it before or after you started bulk aging. I got you, now. I have read where some people do utilize it post fermentation in place of or maybe along with other fining agents.

Does utilizing bentonite pre-fermentation take the place of or negate the need for post-fermentation fining agents?

I noticed in your cellar you sometimes have utilized some additives during fermentation, such as tanCor supra and opti-red?. Won't the pre-fermentation bentonite bind to them immediately and drag them out of the must before they can benefit the wine? I have wanted to utilize some of these additives, but have been concerned they might get removed before they have a chance to do any good.

 

[JimCook]

Richard,


Bentonite is a clay that binds to proteins. VR Supra is a tannin additive and the Opti-Red is a biological nutrient (vitamins, minerals, amino acids, etc.)that is supposed to help provide more complex polysaccharides and tannin in the wine over the course of fermentation. To the best of my current knowledge, Bentonite won't just grab solids out of solution and drag them to the bottom of Davey Jones' proverbial locker, but should help to take out proteins from the wine (protein haze). I hope that answers your question.


Most fining agents that are available are for use with wine from fruit (grapes, etc.). Kits tilt convenience into your favor through initial modification of the raw material product to provide something that a) doesn't spoil and b) needs to make a good, consistent product or the manufacturer will go out of business. The Bentonite's main purpose is to help remove proteins, but it will also bind to color molecules, etc. I can't simply answer your question about potentially negating the need for post-fermentation fining agents as it should really be identified on a case-by-case basis. My rule of thumb is: If time settles the solids out and I don't have to use a fining agent, I'm fine with that.


Check these out...


Opti-Red: http://www.lallemandwine.us/pdf/opti_red_jul_01.pdf


Bentonite: http://www.fst.vt.edu/extension/enology/downloads/bentonite01.pdf


- Jim

 

[robie]

My rule of thumb is: If time settles the solids out and I don't have to use a fining agent, I'm fine with that.

Can't get any clearer or better than that - if you need 'em, you need 'em. If not...
Thanks

 

[RickC]

Richard, all of mine have been reds this year. They have only been bulk aging for about 4 months so hard to tell. There is some sediment now but not nearly as much as the first racking after fining.

 

[PeterZ]

The purpose of fining agents is to cause the particulates to bind together, forming larger "flocs." Larger particles settle faster than smaller particles. If you bulk age and your wine is clear there is no need to add the fining agent, especially if you plan to filter. OTOH, if you want to clear the wine quickly to get it off the fines prior to bulk aging, that's fine too. It's really a matter of choice and your own personal technique in winemaking.