Adding Body

[C3andR]

Hello all. This is my first post to this site. I hope you can help me out?
Last fall I made 50 gallons of Cabernet Sauvignon with grapes from California. The wine lacks body. When I swirl the wine in a wine glass there are no legs. The wine tastes great but is missing somthing. I had google seached "Adding body to wine" and came up with a product called "Glycerine". I do not know anything about this product other than what I read in the advertisement. Is it safe to add to wine or possibly to this years batch? If any of you have information on adding body to wine or this product or others products please reply. Thank you for your time.
C3andR

 

[BobF]

How does the wine taste and how does it feel in the mouth? If 'legs' is the only symptom, see this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tears_of_wine

 

[robie]

Hello all. This is my first post to this site. I hope you can help me out?
Last fall I made 50 gallons of Cabernet Sauvignon with grapes from California. The wine lacks body. When I swirl the wine in a wine glass there are no legs. The wine tastes great but is missing somthing. I had google seached "Adding body to wine" and came up with a product called "Glycerine". I do not know anything about this product other than what I read in the advertisement. Is it safe to add to wine or possibly to this years batch? If any of you have information on adding body to wine or this product or others products please reply. Thank you for your time.
C3andR

Welcome to the forum.

Did you check your final acid level and PH? What were they?
What is the ABV level?
How is the tannin level? You might could use some more.
When you say "body", do you mean that the mouth-feel is just not there?

I have never used glycerine, but someone else might come along who has.

 

[PCharles]

Hello all. This is my first post to this site. I hope you can help me out?
Last fall I made 50 gallons of Cabernet Sauvignon with grapes from California. The wine lacks body. When I swirl the wine in a wine glass there are no legs. The wine tastes great but is missing somthing. I had google seached "Adding body to wine" and came up with a product called "Glycerine". I do not know anything about this product other than what I read in the advertisement. Is it safe to add to wine or possibly to this years batch? If any of you have information on adding body to wine or this product or others products please reply. Thank you for your time.
C3andR

I've not used glycerine, but know a fellow who uses it all the time. I'm not a big fan of it. Mostly, it seems to add mouth appeal to the wine. I'm not sure that this is what you are looking for. Perhaps you can try some with a small sample to see if you like it.

Have you added oak? If you wine is still in your carboy, you could add oak cubes. I'd suggest medium toasted French Oak cubes. For sure that will add some body.

I agree also that pH/TA are important. If you pH is over 4.0 you may want to add some acid. I belive Lactic acid would be the one to use.

Just a thought,

Paul

 

[Rocky]

I have played around with glycerin on a bottle by bottle basis with a wine that I thought was thin. It did give some mouth feel, but I do not recommend it because it is an artificial means of producing this sensation. I think adding tannin or aging in oak would be a better method.

But going back to the beginning, you made 50 gallons of wine from Cabernet Sauvignon grapes? That would take about 700 pounds of grapes. Did you test the brix of the grapes? What was the initial SG of the must? Did you leave the skins in the fermenter for the entire primary phase? Something just does not seem right, having a thin wine from grapes, assuming that they were ripe and sweet. Unless you have a lot of carboys, I assume the wine is in a barrel right now, or not?

 

[C3andR]

Thank you all for the informative responses. Last year was my first year making wine on my own. I watched my Dad make wine over the years and thought I'd give it a try. My Dad is from the Old Country (Italy) and never added anything to his wine. Nor did he test for sugars or add preservatives. God only knows what he and I ingested. The only measurements I took last year was the sugar with my hydrometer. I do not know what the pH or TA levels are. I will look to get into more of the testing over the next couple of batches. I did add French Oak chips to the Carboy last year and have had good results. The wine does taste very good. The body of my wine came up when a friend pointed out that the wine lacks some body and mouth appeal.
He pointed out the lack of legs on the glass and how the wine does not coat the mouth. I agree with him. I spoke with a local winemaker and he said that when a wine lacks body is like drinking skim milk vs. whole milk. He stated that a wine with body coats the mouth and stays awhile, like whole milk does. So I guess what I am trying to achieve is that mouth appeal. Thank you all again.

 

[C3andR]

Rocky, After crushing my grapes (approx 700lbs) I left the entire crush in a fermenter until I pressed the wine (approx 6 days later), skins and all. The juice was put into ten 5 gallon Carboys where it aged for about 7 1/2 months. Oak chips were added after the 2nd racking somtime in April. The oak was in the Carboy approx 1 1/2 months before I bottled the wine. The first initial brix reading was 24.

 

[Rocky]

Everything looks right to me. The question I would have would be the "approx 6 days later" which could be fine but just seems a little short for the primary phase. An initial brix of 24 would portend an ABV of 13.5%. When we made wine at home long ago, we would crush the grapes into the fermenters and leave them for a week to 10 days (and occasionally more depending on the fermentation activity). When you put the wine into the carboys was there still an active fermentation in evidence? I mean were the airlocks "chugging" steadily or occasionally? The only thing that comes to me is not leaving the wine on the skins long enough, but that is just a semi-educated guess.

 

[C3andR]

Rocky, I was surprised at how quick the sugar dropped last year. When I pressed my wine the sugar reading was about 1. This years batch was even quicker. I crushed on Monday and pressed on Thursday. My sugar this time was at Zero. I think the temperature was a bit warmer this year. I tried to slow it down by putting a fan and plastic 1 liter soda bottles that was filled with ice to try and cool down the must but the sugar just dropped. The Carboys had active fermentation and the juice did come out of the airlocks. I think that was my fault for putting the juice to the neck of the carboy instead of the shoulders.

 

[robie]

I agree with Rocky. It does sound like possibly the wine was not on the skins long enough. Each batch of grapes is different. Maybe the ones you used needed a little longer than usual. How is the color of the wine? Is it as dark as you are used to seeing? I would think the wine would be a little lighter than normal, if skin contact is the problem.

Also, the tannin level can be different across grape batches.
Are you happy with the tannin level?
Tannins and oak both help increase the mouth-feel. There are some tannins that can be added after fermentation, like TanCor Grand Cru. It can certainly increase mouth-feel. It is used a lot for red kit wines, because kit wines tend to always be thinner.

I would consider experimenting with tannins and oak, but on a smaller scale in a test scenario.

Placing the wine in a nice wine oak barrel for several months will also thicken the wine up. As the water evaporates out of the barrel, you continue to top off the barrel with more wine. This causes the wine to become thicker and thicker each month.

Again, check the color and tell us if it looks thin in color and depth.

 

[C3andR]

This is really good stuff. A lot of information to play with. I would not say the color is deep but a little on the lighter side. How long would any of you suggest leaving the oak chips in the Carboys? I had the oak in the carboys about 6 weeks.

 

[robie]

This is really good stuff. A lot of information to play with. I would not say the color is deep but a little on the lighter side. How long would any of you suggest leaving the oak chips in the Carboys? I had the oak in the carboys about 6 weeks.

That lighter tone says maybe it needed a little more skin contact.
When you top off the carboys, having you been using wine for top off or water? That could make a difference, too.

Most chips will have all their oakiness used up within about 6 weeks. However, you may not want to leave your wine on the oak that long, depending on how much oak you like. I would taste it every two weeks to make sure you don't over oak.

You can always add more oak, but you can't take any away if it gets over oaked.

Consider adding some of the Tancor Grand Cru. I use it all the time. Adding more oak will not make as much difference in mouth-feel as the tannin. Wish I could help you with the glycerin, but I have no experience with it.

 

[Dugger]

The glycerine I have is recommended at a rate of 30 ml per 23 liters, so you may wish to try some in a bottle - one ml would do it, but that's not easy to measure.

 

[AlFulchino]

in addition to the short length of time mentioned ( six days) i would inquire to you as to how much...how many times a day you punched the skins down during your fermentation?

also 3-4 days for your recent fermentation??? did i read that right? if so expect another thin wine

 

[Rocky]

Great point on the "punch down" Al. That did not occur to me. Yes, we would punch down multiple times per day to get the skins into the wine. Floating on top, they do little good.

 

[C3andR]

Al, This years fermentation the sugar started at 25 on Monday Columbus Day and reached Zero on Thursday morning. Which is about 4 days. I pressed the wine on Thursday and put the juice into Carboys. I would have preferred to keep the skins in contact with the juice for a couple of more days but I was worried the juice would go bad so I pressed it. Last year the fermentation process took about 6 days. I always punch the must down at least twice a day. I am not sure why the wine ferments so fast, I thought that the Must temperature may have been a contributing factor. The temperature of the must last year started at 60 deg the first day and topped out at 82 deg by the 4th day. I am not sure if that is good or if I needed to try and drop the temp down a few degrees. Unfortunetly this years batch my temperature gadge got stuck at 73deg and I was unable to get an accurate temperature of the must but, like I said the sugar dropped a lot quicker. I added my yeast mixture to the must about 6 hours after the crush. It could be that I added to much yeast and that made the sugar drop faster? This is a work in process. I am sure over the next couple of years I'll have a better understanding on how things work and be able to make adjustments. Thanks again. Santo

 

[AlFulchino]

Al, This years fermentation the sugar started at 25 on Monday Columbus Day and reached Zero on Thursday morning. Which is about 4 days. I pressed the wine on Thursday and put the juice into Carboys. I would have preferred to keep the skins in contact with the juice for a couple of more days but I was worried the juice would go bad so I pressed it. Last year the fermentation process took about 6 days. I always punch the must down at least twice a day. I am not sure why the wine ferments so fast, I thought that the Must temperature may have been a contributing factor. The temperature of the must last year started at 60 deg the first day and topped out at 82 deg by the 4th day. I am not sure if that is good or if I needed to try and drop the temp down a few degrees. Unfortunetly this years batch my temperature gadge got stuck at 73deg and I was unable to get an accurate temperature of the must but, like I said the sugar dropped a lot quicker. I added my yeast mixture to the must about 6 hours after the crush. It could be that I added to much yeast and that made the sugar drop faster? This is a work in process. I am sure over the next couple of years I'll have a better understanding on how things work and be able to make adjustments. Thanks again. Santo

Santo it will not go bad that fast..before pressing your wine is loaded w co2...so you have to look at the overall picture

i often see fear in wine makers that things will go bad if..and its a big if...if we just don't do something !!!!..so we worry and try to control things and i call it wine making by fear...i have practiced this myself

your four day fermentation sounds fast..without going into history of the previous posts, i can only say that less time on your skins is significant...so you want to work towards environmental conditions that would prolong this...and the second thing to consider is that wine is not made by fear and control...it wants to make itself and i do not say that disparagingly....as stated, i have done this too...I think it is Tom is always says the 3 P's patience patience and more patience

 

[Charlietuna]

We were having a very similar conversation in the winexpert forum because I over thinned a kit. But I thougt I'd post here to possibly get more views & opinions.

Has anyone ever "sparged" a batch?

I was a PE working for a resin coatings plant years ago & we made base resins for auto coatings. If you made a batch too thin you could in some cases sparge with nitrogen to drive off some of the solvents.

Would it be possible to sparge with a gas such as nitrogen to thicken a batch of wine? Just trying to think outside the box here.

By sparge I mean pump in the gas under the surface by possibly using an aquarium airator stone or such. & letting it blow off water. By using a gas you wouldn't oxidize??

Brian

 

[AlFulchino]

by *thin* i am assuming you mean too much water or you did not have enough body from skin time etc...there is no analogy to "sparge with nitrogen to drive off some of the solvents."

solvents actively *thin*...so driving them off before they do a job is one thing.....if you had too much h20 then thinning would involve boiling off...not gassing...and i think someone mentioned on this forum somewhere that this would equate to distilling and not permitted to discuss ( someone correct me)

if you did not have enough skin time for example, then instead of gas you would be seeking to add body from raisins,and do some other tjings like dealing w oak and tannin