Adding Lactic Acid to Finished Wine

[MiBor]

This is something I've been thinking about for a while. It's more of an intellectual musing than a practical solution to a problem, but I believe there is something to be gained from sorting it out. I searched the forums and there is not much on the subject, just a mention of it here and there. So, here is the question:

Can Lactic Acid be added to a "flabby" wine to enhance taste, instead of - or in addition to - Tartaric Acid?

The taste profile of Lactic Acid is different than Tartaric. I think that in a wine that won't go through MLF for one reason or another, but needs some acid to bring it into balance, it may be beneficial to add Lactic Acid and create a smoother, buttery taste, than the harsher acidity of Tartaric that most likely won't integrate well when added after primary fermentation.

What do you guys think?

 

[salcoco]

try a sample.

 

[stickman]

There's nothing wrong with trying different acids to achieve the taste you're looking for. Lactic acid won't change the pH much if at all, but if you're only looking to add a little tartness then as @salcoco said give it a try. I don't think lactic acid will provide any buttery taste as that comes from diacetal. A little lactic acid may be fine, too much could start to get a little hot on the palate.

 

[Ajmassa]

Could use the “acid blend” they sell and see how that goes too (tartaric, citric, malic)
And some tartaric on its own.

If nothing else bench trials will give you great 1st hand knowledge on how diff acids affect the wine.

 

[Venatorscribe]

Please keep us updated on your trials.

 

[Rice_Guy]

* lactic acid will work for acidification of wine and other food. It is fairly weak and has a mild flavor. It is predictable ie pH response is close to linear. It is a liquid, , , For the concentration available at your wine shop it will take a lot to push your pH/ TA, dilution is a factor! ie flabby may become more flabby.
* tartaric is the one I am trending to in wine since the flavor is quite clean. It complexes potassium so results are complicated.
* citric has a sharp flavor, a lot of buffer capacity and shows up in a lot of foods, available as a dry chemical so you don’t dilute the wine, also cheap
* Malic also has a sharp flavor, not as cheap as citric, dry so you don’t dilute, useful in candy to push fruit flavors but at a higher cost
* other acids are out there. Lots of phosphoric is used in food, clean flavor, buffers at useful places as 4 or 7, lots of strength ex soda at pH 2.5 only has a TA of 0.2%. It is a liquid, For the concentration at your wine shop it will take a lot to push the pH so you have dilution of wine.

 

[JCBurg]

There's nothing wrong with trying different acids to achieve the taste you're looking for. Lactic acid won't change the pH much if at all, but if you're only looking to add a little tartness then as @salcoco said give it a try. I don't think lactic acid will provide any buttery taste as that comes from diacetal. A little lactic acid may be fine, too much could start to get a little hot on the palate.

Is there a way to add diacetal, a little butteriness, to a wine after the fact?

 

[sour_grapes]

Is there a way to add diacetal, a little butteriness, to a wine after the fact?

For example:

https://www.olivenation.com/butter-...MI8vOt0vva5QIVsh-tBh1mWgrmEAQYASABEgJWy_D_BwE

 

[JCBurg]

For example:

https://www.olivenation.com/butter-...MI8vOt0vva5QIVsh-tBh1mWgrmEAQYASABEgJWy_D_BwE

My immediate response to this picture was to laugh, because I thought you were trolling me, now I am just intrigued. Wouldn't a flavoring throw the wine off? It's got all kinds of stuff in it.

 

[stickman]

I've never played around with any of these, so I couldn't say how well it would integrate, to me that's the biggest issue when adding flavors. Most of these butter flavors contain diacetyl and related compounds, not just diacetyl, but they do appear to be alcohol and propylene glycol based solutions which would allow them to be compatible. The amount needed is very small, depends on the wine and your threshold, probably around 1ppm as diacetyl.

The pure stuff is $44 for 5ml

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalo...Insite-_-prodRecCold_xviews-_-prodRecCold10-2

 

[JCBurg]

So them this would probably be a good candidate for a trial. Figure out the additive quantity, put it in, then age it and see how it comes out the other side.

 

[Rice_Guy]

If you are concept testing, diacetyl is the primary flavor in Butter Buds.

Just be aware that the product is not good for bottled product with extras as dextrin, rice starch, salt.

 

[sour_grapes]

Yes, I was serious! Like @stickman , I also found some pure stuff, but the one I found was hideously expensive.

I might just give the one I found a try!

 

[Arne]

Try mixing a little in a glass. See how it tastes before you go all the way with it. Arne.

 

[MiBor]

I did a little experiment with lactic acid and my flabby 3.98pH wine. A guy at work who brews his own beer had some lactic acid at home. He said he uses it for sour beers or whatever. So I went over his house with the last bottle of flabby wine that I kept for experimental purposes (I corrected that batch's acidity with tartaric since I last posted) and my pH meter. We said that we'll add a little lactic acid at a time until we change the wine's pH by about 0.1 - 0.15, while monitoring the taste after each addition. It took quite a bit of acid (liquid) for a 250ml sample to change the pH to 3.84. I didn't monitor the TA because I didn't want to go there with my test kit and I was only interested in the taste of the wine anyway. The taste was not improved at all, in my opinion. The "corrected" wine was still lifeless, but with a slight note of sauerkraut.
So my conclusion is that there is no benefit in adding lactic acid to wine. I kinda' realized that after @stickman clarified that the buttery taste actually comes from diacetyl, but I had to find out. I was hoping that someone else tried it already and would share his/her findings, but since nobody said anything, I tried it for myself.
Now I'm curious about the diacetyl and how it would affect the taste of wine. I'm inclined to buy the $44.20/5ml stuff and try it out in a gallon of wine, to see how it integrates.

 

[sour_grapes]

Thanks for reporting back on your results. Nice to have confirmation on that.

Now about that butter....

 

[Rice_Guy]

Thanks for making me laugh.

. . . . The "corrected" wine was still lifeless, but with a slight note of sauerkraut. . . So my conclusion is that there is no benefit in adding lactic acid to wine. . . Now I'm curious about the diacetyl and how it would affect the taste of wines

I have done the same since marketing wanted a cleaner food flavor, , , a trip down memory lane.
Imagine loading your nasal cavity with a hot tea made from butter buds then pinching your nose to seal the aroma in and taking a swig of test wine. . . . The literature tends to say that high levels of diacety is a fault.

 

[MiBor]

Thanks @Rice_Guy for saving me the expense and the time I would have wasted with the diacetyl experiment. I'm slowly finding out that there is not much (in terms of flavor) that you can add to wine without jacking it up. Your description of what the taste would be like is funny and enlightening at the same time. Are you a food or flavor chemist? It sounds like you have a lot of experience in that field...

 

[Rice_Guy]

The degree was in food science (people who put products together with chemicals you can’t pronounce) but that was a lifetime ago.

Today I am grandpa who wonders what to do with the excess from the garden? The current ferment is called “Thanksgiving wine” which is several liters of butternut squash juice, a liter of cranberry and a can of orange concentrate. . . . When I test this blend in a pie no one tastes the squash AND I made produce go away. . . . BUT flavors were made to delight the mouth. I can picture a delicious diacetyl wine with a name like “caramel popcorn”.

 

[MiBor]

It's great to have you on the WMT forums, @Rice_Guy. Your contribution is greatly appreciated.