All my beginner winemaking questions

[davmmcdonald]

I am fairly new to brewing home brewing and have made a couple of batches of wine, mead, and beer. I have some recurring questions that I can’t seem to find any consensus on and wanted to get some clarification. Thanks in advance!

• When racking and/or taking hydrometer samples throughout the process, I feel like I’m losing too much liquid and creating extra headspace. I’m concerned about oxidation, particular when bulk aging in secondary. Should I be topping off with store bought wine?
• Is it really important to rack multiple times after transferring to the secondary? Or can I just leave it there until it clears and then bottle?
• I’m experimenting with lots of different recipes and only have a limited number of carboys for bulk aging (with limited space to store them). I’d like to start bottling some of my first batches to free up some carboys. Is 2-3 months bulk aging adequate, assuming I bottle age a bit after that?
• I’ve heard a lot of homebrewers talk about bottle aging for years before drinking their wine. At this point I’m just small batch experimenting and want to try out a bunch of different recipes. I understand the importance of patience, but I’m really not interested in waiting to open bottles for 3+ years. I know this is a contentious question, but what is the minimum amount of time you’d let a bottle of wine age before its “good enough”?
• Any thoughts on sulfites + sorbates vs. pasteurization? I've always felt like I have a mild averse reaction to certain drinks with sulfites, so I'd like to avoid it. That said, I've used it in my wines / meads so far just because most recipes call for it.

 

[vinny]

When you take a gravity reading sanitize your equipment and pour your sample back. If it becomes a taste test top up with store bought or anything you have on hand. You want to have an inch or two of headspace max.

The risk of aging in bottles is that the wine goes through so many changes in the first 3-6 months that some members have noted differences in the bottles if bottled too early. But it is your wine and if you want to bottle, the rules are yours to make. It really depends on the wine, bit I find with kits three months is my minimum. And a week or two around that timeframe can be notable. I had one kit that I thought tasted pretty unbalanced and 2 weeks later I sampled it again and decided to bottle. My rule is if I like it I drink it. Heavy reds will take longer to balance than a light/fruit wine. I balance the earlier drinking of some wines by making lots to leave samples to taste later down the line.

I rack from primary and add k-meta, I wait 3ish months to sample and decide to bottle, rack ,or add k-meta and leave it. It depends on the wine. Lees can add flavour. Light wines, you might not want to let sit on them, but some do that intentionally, its called sur lie, and adds nutty notes to a wine. I've left reds on the lees and racked at 3, 4, and 5 months. Sometimes for aging, but often I am not paying attention to the date. If you want to bottle early perhaps racking, adding k meta and gently mixing the wine may be an option. Allow to sit and bottle in a day or two?

I have eliminated everything fro. My wines, but sulphite. You can't change what is in kit juice, but many here don't add sorbate unless they intend to back sweeten. Kits have a sulphite/sorbate pack, I toss it in the cabinet and use k-meta. All my wines are intended to be dry. If I decide to sweeten I add it at that time.

There are lots of rules with wine, but overall wine is very forgiving. You will make your personal rules based on preference as you make more batches. The important thing is to keep air out. Make sure you top up carboys and keep air locks full. The rest leaves room for understanding.

 

[Rice_Guy]

* sulphites have chemical as well as microbiological functions. I use K meta. I try to not use K sorbate. For me the answer has been to wait about nine months to back sweeten or simply not back sweeten. (the problem with sorbate is bubblegum flavor from ethyl sorbate. )
* bottle shock should be done in a month, that probably is a minimum. You could drink the day you bottle and I have taken wines to the vinters club from the week I was bottling.
* bottle when how old? A few directions ,, A kit will be ninety days. Kits pull a lot of solids out with ing fining. ,, In part the answer is how tolerant of stuff settling to the bottom of the bottle? If you pour carefully or only serve the top of the bottle to a guest it would work. ,, Do you sweeten? Expect live yeast at ninety days so sweetening needs more safety as K sorbate. Time removes yeast
* racking? I try to do from bucket to carboy > off the gross lees at 30 days > prepping for bottling at nine months.
* head space? For short periods as a week it is OK. Before racking off gross lees I am more sloppy since it is generating CO2. For months of storage I minimize head space. You could try one and learn what oxidation is, ,,, naw try the topping off or marbles or poly balls or argon gas.
* my grandparents didn’t have all the tools we have today. If you stick to red wine or high tannin apple you can break rules and still drink it. ,,, BUT a guess is that a millennium ago two year old wine usually tasted like vinegar.

 

[QuiQuog]

I second that you should be pouring your gravity reading sample back in. Regarding topping up with store bought wine, some people think it won't be wine they made anymore. In reality, the amount added is such a small fraction of the total, it's not going to effect the character of the wine at all.

I think it's important to note that sur lie aging is typically done on fine lees rather than gross lees, but either way it's probably best to experiment with after you have some more batches and research under your belt. Letting wine clear on its own is different than sur lie aging, which involves stirring up the lees every now and again. Personally, if I were to let it clear on its own, I would still rack it into another carboy and let it clear again. Naturally cleared wines drop sediment for some time.

As far as bottle vs bulk aging, in my experience I wouldn't characterize bottle aging a risk. Yes, some bottles may be different, but mostly because of a poor cork. I've never experienced a bad bottle, or one that was different than another. But then I've not done hundreds of batches. I would say that your small batch experiments don't age differently than larger batches, and they'll tasted markedly different at bottling than they taste at three months, than they taste at 1 year, than they taste at 3 years. If you set aside at least one bottle out of each batch and come back to it the following year, it will be a different experience than it was if you tasted it to early. You said you made mead. I'm wondering if you've saved one of those. I hear mead in particular takes longer to come around.

 

[BigDaveK]

I am really shocked, shocked I tell you, that after 5 hours I'm only the 4th responder.
I'll just add a little to the good advice so far.

I oversize my batches just a bit. For example, for a small batch I'll have a gallon plus either a quart or half gallon in secondary. When I rack to bulk I'll have a gallon with very little ullage and usually a glass+ to drink. I'm trying to avoid adding a "foreign" liquid to my wine to top up.

I rack twice. I rack from secondary to bulk and I don't really care if a little sediment gets transferred because the wine is still in the process of clearing. My second racking will be when I'm preparing to bottle. That's it. Look up sur lie a battonage. The fine lees offer a number of benefits during aging. And if the container isn't opened, exposing the wine to oxygen, there's no ned to go crazy with sulfite.

Most of the chemical reactions in most wines are finished somewhere around 6 months. That's when I start to consider bottling - but I'm in no hurry. After bottling wait for a month or so and if you want, start drinking. But try to save a few bottles to sample 12, 18, or 24 months later. Some complex wines are worth the wait.

Wine is an incredibly complex liquid. If someone has a reaction to drinking wine it's sulfites that always get the blame. Most sulfite reactions show up as asthmatic episodes not headaches. Chances are a headache is caused by another compound. Besides, sulfites seem to be everywhere. Google foods with sulfites, you'll be surprised. Also, the recommended sulfite dosage is dependent on pH - the lower the pH, the less needed.

Welcome to WMT and have fun!

 

[FlamingoEmporium]

I’ll be fifth. As Dave said always make a little extra for topping off. I keep a small portion of fermented but not aged batch in the fridge for topping off. Having no basement and limited space I often have to bottle around 3 months, but no sooner . And one or 2 racking off of secondary but not many more required. Just be careful when bottling not to disturb sediment or rack most of clear wine and leave the bottom portion for personal consumption so as not to cloud your bottles.
you can use limited chemicals with good sanitation practices and if you wait after Backsweetening to bottle. Although I recently uncorked a bottle of plumeria wine that apparently went through secondary fermentation. Sparkling happy accident.

 

[Jovimaple]

I used to rack every 3-4 months, but now I am leaning toward leaving reds especially on the fine lees. As mentioned, the wine will continue to clear for a long time, dropping more fine lees, so I no longer worry about racking off of them. Obviously, using fining agents speeds up that time. Degassing also helps the process along. I use my All In One Wine pump for racking to carboys, so that gets the degassing process going right away.

The kits that I have done say to rack to a carboy after primary fermentation is done, then leave it until bottling. Since kits don't produce gross lees, I generally don't rack again until bottling, although my carboys are topped up and I will add kmeta every 3 or 4 months because I often do bulk age the kits longer than the directions say.

Bottling time is when I rack as cleanly as possible to a sanitized fermenting bucket, to leave the lees in the carboy and not in my bottles! I add a final dose of kmeta while racking it into the bucket, so it gets stirred in. Then I immediately bottle.

For kits that I plan to bulk age longer, I rack down. For example, I have a 6 gallon FWK cab sav bulk aging in a 5 gallon carboy, with the rest in a gallon carboy also under airlock. I have a collection of smaller jugs and bottles I use for the "leftovers" and a universal bung will fit most bottles if you turn the bung upside down. One caveat is to make sure to taste the leftovers before using to top up as oxidation is faster in smaller amounts.

For kits that I plan to bottle around kit schedule, I don't worry too much about topping off.

For fruit wines, I rack off the gross lees within a couple weeks. I also make extra for topping up, especially since some fruits produce a lot of gross lees. After that, it depends upon how lazy I am and what else is going on. I have a peach wine from peach nectar (no water added) that is bulk aging now. I've racked it twice - once out of the primary fermenter and once off of the gross lees. Now it is bulk aging with just kmeta. After 9-12 months of aging to make sure the yeastie beasties are dead and the wine is clear, I will backsweeten and bottle.

On a couple of batches, I have topped off with commercial wine or an earlier batch of my own wine, if it's enough space to top off but not enough to justify racking down to a smaller size carboy.

Finally, I second the comment about sanitizing your hydrometer and test jar/thief so you can pour the sample back! Or pour most of it back anyway, if you sample some.

 

[ChuckD]

@davmmcdonald
All good advice. I rack from primary to secondary then off gross lees and add k-meta after fermentation is complete. At that point I’ll age for a few months to years without racking again. I’m lazy and forgetful so I have let wines go five or six months without adding more k-meta. I think if they are topped up, the airlock is maintained, and you don’t open them, you are pretty safe to stretch that three months out a bit.

I think three months in bulk is going to allow most of the major changes to take place so you are good to bottle after that. The wine will continue to age in the bottle though. If you want to back sweeten that early though you’ll need to add sorbate.

Try stepping up to some three-gallon carboys. Not so heavy as 5’s and you’ll have more “aging stock”

 

[vinny]

Have you tried dragons blood or skeeter pee? Both are light and drinkable within a month or so. DB is a good base recipe that you can use any frozen fruit with to change up the flavors. You can search it on this site.

 

[Retired teacher]

Have you tried dragons blood or skeeter pee?

I’ll give 2 thumbs up for both of these!

 

[wineview]

My practice has been to rack every three or four months adding K meta each time. I like to keep the wine in bulk for a year. After reading this post, I may reduce my racking schedule to two times. I will however dose with kmeta every three months and give the carboy a slight stir.

 

[winemaker81]

I have some recurring questions that I can’t seem to find any consensus on and wanted to get some clarification.

You are going to be disappointed -- ask a question of 10 winemakers, get at least 11 answers.

In all seriousness, there are a lot of right answers that may differ, and all advice offered so far is good. Pay attention to why people do what they do, and use that to make your own choice.

My take on things:

When racking and/or taking hydrometer samples throughout the process, I feel like I’m losing too much liquid and creating extra headspace. I’m concerned about oxidation, particular when bulk aging in secondary. Should I be topping off with store bought wine?

My first rackings are dirty -- I worry more about unnecessary wine loss than sucking up a bit of sediment. This link is my tips on reducing wine loss during racking:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/reducing-wine-loss/
As has been mentioned, make sure all equipment is clean and sanitized, and pour samples back into the secondary.

Absolutely yes, top up with store bought wine. You are protecting your investment, which includes money, time, and pride.

Is it really important to rack multiple times after transferring to the secondary? Or can I just leave it there until it clears and then bottle?

No. I was taught to rack every 3 months, but it's not necessary. Search on "sur lie" and "battonage", which involve leaving wine on the fine lees (yeast hulls).

I've left wine on the fine lees for a year with no problem.

I’m experimenting with lots of different recipes and only have a limited number of carboys for bulk aging (with limited space to store them). I’d like to start bottling some of my first batches to free up some carboys. Is 2-3 months bulk aging adequate, assuming I bottle age a bit after that?

The short answer is that you can bottle whenever you want. For more consistent batches, I suggest not bottling before the 4 month mark from starting the wine. Most of my early mentors used what I call the 1-3-3 Rule, and in numerous blogs and papers the 4 month mark appears commonly, so there's something to it.

Also, make sure you have room for the bottles -- it's easy to overproduce.

I’ve heard a lot of homebrewers talk about bottle aging for years before drinking their wine. At this point I’m just small batch experimenting and want to try out a bunch of different recipes. I understand the importance of patience, but I’m really not interested in waiting to open bottles for 3+ years. I know this is a contentious question, but what is the minimum amount of time you’d let a bottle of wine age before its “good enough”?

The short answer is, "it depends". Anyone who tells you wine needs to age 3 years in the bottle is flat wrong. A lot of wines are in decline by that point.

Any wine may taste good at the 5 month mark (4 months of production + bulk aging, 1 month in the bottle to get past bottle shock), but all but the lightest wines (whites and fruits) will improve with time.

If YOU like it? It's drinkable. No one else's opinion matters.

Light whites and light fruits are potentially drinkable at the 5 month mark, and some may start decline at the 1 year mark.

Medium whites, medium fruits, and light reds may need another few months. Heavy fruits and heavy reds? Anything from 9 months to 3 years until they're really good.

I suggest opening a bottle every 2 or 3 months, and record your impressions. Put those notes away and don't look at them again. At the one year mark, open a bottle, record your impressions, and then read the notes first to last. You'll learn a lot about aging.

Any thoughts on sulfites + sorbates vs. pasteurization? I've always felt like I have a mild averse reaction to certain drinks with sulfites, so I'd like to avoid it. That said, I've used it in my wines / meads so far just because most recipes call for it.

Pasteurization may kill microbes, but doesn't do good things to the wine, and it does not address O2 and light, which oxidize wine.

Wine without K-meta has a limited shelf life. I don't buy "organic" wines, as IME they go bad very quickly.

Sorbate is only necessary if backsweetening, and @Rice_Guy mentioned bulk aging the wine 9+ months and skipping it.

 

[wineview]

You are going to be disappointed -- ask a question of 10 winemakers, get at least 11 answers.

In all seriousness, there are a lot of right answers that may differ, and all advice offered so far is good. Pay attention to why people do what they do, and use that to make your own choice.

My take on things:


My first rackings are dirty -- I worry more about unnecessary wine loss than sucking up a bit of sediment. This link is my tips on reducing wine loss during racking:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/reducing-wine-loss/
As has been mentioned, make sure all equipment is clean and sanitized, and pour samples back into the secondary.

Absolutely yes, top up with store bought wine. You are protecting your investment, which includes money, time, and pride.


No. I was taught to rack every 3 months, but it's not necessary. Search on "sur lie" and "battonage", which involve leaving wine on the fine lees (yeast hulls).

I've left wine on the fine lees for a year with no problem.


The short answer is that you can bottle whenever you want. For more consistent batches, I suggest not bottling before the 4 month mark from starting the wine. Most of my early mentors used what I call the 1-3-3 Rule, and in numerous blogs and papers the 4 month mark appears commonly, so there's something to it.

Also, make sure you have room for the bottles -- it's easy to overproduce.


The short answer is, "it depends". Anyone who tells you wine needs to age 3 years in the bottle is flat wrong. A lot of wines are in decline by that point.

Any wine may taste good at the 5 month mark (4 months of production + bulk aging, 1 month in the bottle to get past bottle shock), but all but the lightest wines (whites and fruits) will improve with time.

If YOU light it? It's drinkable. No one else's opinion matters.

Light whites and light fruits are potentially drinkable at the 5 month mark, and some may start decline at the 1 year mark.

Medium whites, medium fruits, and light reds may need another few months. Heavy fruits and heavy reds? Anything from 9 months to 3 years until they're really good.

I suggest opening a bottle every 2 or 3 months, and record your impressions. Put those notes away and don't look at them again. At the one year mark, open a bottle, record your impressions, and then read the notes first to last. You'll learn a lot about aging.


Pasteurization may kill microbes, but doesn't do good things to the wine, and it does not address O2 and light, which oxidize wine.

Wine without K-meta has a limited shelf life. I don't buy "organic" wines, as IME they go bad very quickly.

Sorbate is only necessary if backsweetening, and @Rice_Guy mentioned bulk aging the wine 9+ months and skipping it.

“O2 and light, which oxidize wine.”

I have always been I the habit of draping my carboys with a towel or small blanket to keep them in the dark even though they are in a basement. Most photos I’ve seen on this forum and others have their carboys uncovered. I’ve always wondered why.

 

[hounddawg]

much fine advice here, as for k-meta i only add when i rack, whether that is 3 months or 2 years, i don't usually, but i have aged with no problems for up to 2 years, not what i tend to do, but i have done, as for mead, i made mead - melomel and a few others , did not care for them , then i found a few bottlers 5 plus years old, dang had i only knew, and yes i have let sit on gross lees for a couple years a time or two,
Dawg

 

[wineview]

much fine advice here, as for k-meta i only add when i rack, whether that is 3 months or 2 years, i don't usually, but i have aged with no problems for up to 2 years, not what i tend to do, but i have done, as for mead, i made mead - melomel and a few others , did not care for them , then i found a few bottlers 5 plus years old, dang had i only knew, and yes i have let sit on gross lees for a couple years a time or two,
Dawg

You must have a lot of carboys

 

[ChuckD]

You must have a lot of carboys

Nobody has ever seen them all but there are stories… legends even

 

[hounddawg]

things are different now a days, i was getting premium Italian 6 gal carboys to my door for under $35 each ordering 4 at a time, now they want dang near twice that, same with fruit, concentrate and other components, when I started looking at cutting a breezeway between 2 bedrooms, i decided enough is enough, i took my 2- 60 gal fermenters out, and brought back in 2 - 40 gal and 2 - 14 gal fermenters,
Dawg

 

[hounddawg]

You must have a lot of carboys

i keep premium Italian glass 1#-3 gall,, 2#-5 gall, 3#-6.5 gallon, and a butt load of 6 gall, 2 stainless 5 gallons and 3#- 15.5 gallon, beer kegs with tri clamps wielded on, now i keep 1# 6.5 sitting under my AIO VAC pump, every drop from racking to bottling, that one 6.5 jugs everything goes through, bar none, ,, a dozen gallon jugs, a dozen half gallon jugs and a dozen pint jugs, all with 38-400 threads so a 6.5 drill bung will fit and airlock all, a small universal bung that fits all but your 6.5 gal carboy
(6.5 drilled bung) uses them, flipped upside down they will airlock wine bottles 750 ml and splits, 375 ml, and Steve can hook you up with a double drilled 6.5 bung, so you can toss that wine bottle overflow vac tank and replace with a 1 gallon thumb hole jug, 38-400 thread, i strip all his hoses off and replace with 14 foot to 16 foot new tubes, so pump sits one spot but i can rack, filter. bottle from anywhere in the room, get a very bad back, amputate a leg one side and 1/3 foot other side, you'll figure out to sit and do all, as well only allow wooden chairs in you wine lab, never no metal ones, with a designated 6.5 carboy, you have no need in empty carboys, only one, i got to do some bottling soon, i just rerecovered 4 gallon coloma pare and 2 gallon coloma peach in freezer, like i said i just down sized to 2#- 40 gallon brutes and 2#- 14 gallon ferment barrels, that may sound like a lot, but i do love to bulk age, you make a red today, and you find a different wine in a few years,,,,
Dawg

 

[wineview]

i keep premium Italian glass 1#-3 gall,, 2#-5 gall, 3#-6.5 gallon, and a butt load of 6 gall, 2 stainless 5 gallons and 3#- 15.5 gallon, beer kegs with tri clamps wielded on, now i keep 1# 6.5 sitting under my AIO VAC pump, every drop from racking to bottling, that one 6.5 jugs everything goes through, bar none, ,, a dozen gallon jugs, a dozen half gallon jugs and a dozen pint jugs, all with 38-400 threads so a 6.5 drill bung will fit and airlock all, a small universal bung that fits all but your 6.5 gal carboy
(6.5 drilled bung) uses them, flipped upside down they will airlock wine bottles 750 ml and splits, 375 ml, and Steve can hook you up with a double drilled 6.5 bung, so you can toss that wine bottle overflow vac tank and replace with a 1 gallon thumb hole jug, 38-400 thread, i strip all his hoses off and replace with 14 foot to 16 foot new tubes, so pump sits one spot but i can rack, filter. bottle from anywhere in the room, get a very bad back, amputate a leg one side and 1/3 foot other side, you'll figure out to sit and do all, as well only allow wooden chairs in you wine lab, never no metal ones, with a designated 6.5 carboy, you have no need in empty carboys, only one, i got to do some bottling soon, i just rerecovered 4 gallon coloma pare and 2 gallon coloma peach in freezer, like i said i just down sized to 2#- 40 gallon brutes and 2#- 14 gallon ferment barrels, that may sound like a lot, but i do love to bulk age, you make a red today, and you find a different wine in a few years,,,,
Dawg

Quite an operation.

 

[hounddawg]

Quite an operation.

oh, i started with plastic carboys, manual pumps, everything the hard way, but over time, it has come around some,, this craft is all about enjoying yourself, nothing more, nothing less to me, just find some peace and quite,
Dawg