Amount of Fruit for Recipes

[Mango Man]

Most recipes call for an amount of fruit in bulk weight. Then the instructions say to cut, peel, stone, etc. I have been using the processed weight to get more fruit flavor. Example: 5 gallon Banana recipe called for 15 lbs. I weighed 7 bunches of bananas (21.5 lbs.). Then I peeled them and discarded the peels. Banana weight (15.17 lbs.). So in this example I am essentially increasing the actual banana weight by ~ 6 lbs. How have others treated the amount of fruit called for in recipes?

 

[Johnd]

Most recipes call for an amount of fruit in bulk weight. Then the instructions say to cut, peel, stone, etc. I have been using the processed weight to get more fruit flavor. Example: 5 gallon Banana recipe called for 15 lbs. I weighed 7 bunches of bananas (21.5 lbs.). Then I peeled them and discarded the peels. Banana weight (15.17 lbs.). So in this example I am essentially increasing the actual banana weight by ~ 6 lbs. How have others treated the amount of fruit called for in recipes?

When I've made fruit wines and used recipes, I've always interpreted the # of fruit to be the prepared fruit weight, not the weight before it is processed. I rarely follow those guidelines anyway, opting for as much fruit as I can get with little to no water added, for the best flavor impact.

 

[BernardSmith]

I agree with Johnd. In my opinion, most published recipes seem to be written by people who prefer a wine that reminds them of the flavor of the fruit. Dilute fruit flavors is what they enjoy. It's true that SOME fruit is too acidic to make a good wine without some dilution and it is also true that for many folk the idea of spending so much money on peaches or apricots or mangoes or ??? to make a wine when water is much less expensive makes little sense.. but if you like the flavor of fruit then you might want to use as little water as possible to make your wine.

That said, many of the old country wine recipes do seem to use about 3 - 4 lbs of fruit per gallon. I dunno. Three pounds of strawberries to make a gallon of wine results (for me) in a wine that is flavor-thin, after all, it takes about 16 lbs of grapes to make a gallon of grape wine and about the same weight of apples to make a gallon of juice... and I don't know anyone who dilutes pressed grape juice or apple juice to make a wine, so why would it take three pounds of plums to make a plum wine or three pounds of strawberries to make a strawberry wine?

 

[Johnd]

I agree with Johnd. In my opinion, most published recipes seem to be written by people who prefer a wine that reminds them of the flavor of the fruit. Dilute fruit flavors is what they enjoy. It's true that SOME fruit is too acidic to make a good wine without some dilution and it is also true that for many folk the idea of spending so much money on peaches or apricots or mangoes or ??? to make a wine when water is much less expensive makes little sense.. but if you like the flavor of fruit then you might want to use as little water as possible to make your wine.

That said, many of the old country wine recipes do seem to use about 3 - 4 lbs of fruit per gallon. I dunno. Three pounds of strawberries to make a gallon of wine results (for me) in a wine that is flavor-thin, after all, it takes about 16 lbs of grapes to make a gallon of grape wine and about the same weight of apples to make a gallon of juice... and I don't know anyone who dilutes pressed grape juice or apple juice to make a wine, so why would it take three pounds of plums to make a plum wine or three pounds of strawberries to make a strawberry wine?

Totally on board with you here Bernard, it's about whether you want to make fruit wine, or fruit - flavored wine!! At least in my opinion...............

 

[Scooter68]

Yup, If you are making a Fruit wine, make a Fruit wine not a fruit flavor alcoholic beverage. Sadly some of the most well regarded and widely known wine makers have posted recipes with 3-4 lbs of fruit per gallon and that just doesn't cut it with most fruit wines. Even adding raisins, white grape juice, apple juice etc is still just going to result in a wine that is flavored like a certain fruit.

I always work with processed weight of fruit. Some folks go with the "No Water Added" approach meaning all their juice volume comes from the fruit. With some fruits, that's fine, with others as Bernard stated you can wind up with a very acidic wine that is hard to ferment. (Blueberry is the most common wine that is acidic)
Here are a few of the wines I've made and the quantities of processed fruit that I used with very good results:
Peach 6-8lbs / gallon
Blueberry 6-7 lbs / gallon
Apple (I work from volume of pure Apple juice 1:1)
Wild Black Raspberry 4.5-6lbs /gallon (This is an exception Wild Black Raspberries are really potent and my first with 4.5lb / gallon was A SOLID full flavor wine

After a few batches you will learn the best amounts to use that please YOUR palate and that's what matters. I've added a few other fruits or things on occasion to make a special wine. About 3 oz of White Grape Juice Concentrate in a gallon blueberry wine gives a nice bouquet without really changing the taste. I've added 1/8 of a vanilla bean to a Peach wine and that turned out great. So once you establish the strength of the wine you like you can play with the recipes to suit yourself. This week I started my 45th batch of wine in 5 years So I don't make a lot of it and I make only non-grape wines. I like to make what you can't really buy at even the best beverage shops.

 

[Rice_Guy]

I try to use 100% fruit also, however most of what I do is a blend of high acid as gooseberry mixed with low(er) acid/ but high aroma as watermelon, that carboy also got 2 ounces of raspberry to produce a stable blush color.
In essence I am formulating to put in teaspoons of acid in the must using natural food rules which maximizes fruity aroma/ taste.

 

[Mango Man]

Yup, If you are making a Fruit wine, make a Fruit wine not a fruit flavor alcoholic beverage. Sadly some of the most well regarded and widely known wine makers have posted recipes with 3-4 lbs of fruit per gallon and that just doesn't cut it with most fruit wines. Even adding raisins, white grape juice, apple juice etc is still just going to result in a wine that is flavored like a certain fruit.

I always work with processed weight of fruit. Some folks go with the "No Water Added" approach meaning all their juice volume comes from the fruit. With some fruits, that's fine, with others as Bernard stated you can wind up with a very acidic wine that is hard to ferment. (Blueberry is the most common wine that is acidic)
Here are a few of the wines I've made and the quantities of processed fruit that I used with very good results:
Peach 6-8lbs / gallon
Blueberry 6-7 lbs / gallon
Apple (I work from volume of pure Apple juice 1:1)
Wild Black Raspberry 4.5-6lbs /gallon (This is an exception Wild Black Raspberries are really potent and my first with 4.5lb / gallon was A SOLID full flavor wine

After a few batches you will learn the best amounts to use that please YOUR palate and that's what matters. I've added a few other fruits or things on occasion to make a special wine. About 3 oz of White Grape Juice Concentrate in a gallon blueberry wine gives a nice bouquet without really changing the taste. I've added 1/8 of a vanilla bean to a Peach wine and that turned out great. So once you establish the strength of the wine you like you can play with the recipes to suit yourself. This week I started my 45th batch of wine in 5 years So I don't make a lot of it and I make only non-grape wines. I like to make what you can't really buy at even the best beverage shops.

So what was the starting volume and yield after removing the pulp for a 1 gallon batch of peach wine using 6 - 8 lbs? Did you start with 1.5 gallons to get 1 gallon of fermented wine?

 

[Scooter68]

Something along that amount - 1.5 gallons to start or in my case about 4.5 gallons for a 3 gallon batch. With fruit pulp in the picture you need to significantly increase starting volume to allow for that loss. If you go too high, fine, you will have extra to top off later when more lees drop out. (That's one reason to look for and have on hand bottles from 12 oz to 1/2 gallon and even 3 liters that can accept a standard bung or screw cap for an airlock. ) As long as the SG reading and fruit per gallon is correct so lets say 7-9 lbs for 1.5 gallons of wine must starting out, then you will be fine. Also don't be afraid to wring the lees out and capture some of that cloudy wine at the bottom. Put that in a glass container in the fridge and let it settle out. You might gain 1/2 qt from a qt jar of the lees. Just don't let it set there too long - separate the lees from the wine once the lees in that extra qt jar settle out.

The other issue with peach is that it often starts out with a pudding like consistency making SG reading tough to get. I try to hit the must with extra pectic enzyme (2-3 times normal amount) solid dose of K-meta and then wait 24-36 hours before trying to get a decent SG reading. (You walk a fine line between allowing the must to spoil and getting it to breakdown enough to get a good SG reading. So some extra K-meta while prepping a batch of peach must is a good idea, plus keep it as cool as possible.

 

[winemaker81]

I have H E Bravery's Successful Wine Making At Home (published 1961) and Stanley F Anderson's The Art of Making Wine (published 1970).

Both contain many recipes, and the amount of fruit used in recipes varies dramatically from 2#/gallon for loganberries to 8#/gallon for black cherries. Some recipes with low fruit have adjuncts such as raisins or grape concentrate, but the loganberry recipe does not. That's surprising as I don't see any consistent pattern regarding the strength of fruit flavor. It may be that some of the recipes were copied from other sources and were not tested.

My experience in fruit wine making is that (in general) more is better. I tried recipes with lower amount of fruit (2.5#) and each was disappointing. For the most part, 5#/gallon is a minimum, although I don't disagree with @Scooter68's opinion on amounts.

Side Note: both books provide a good background on home wine making, going into details regarding equipment, additives, etc. From that perspective, I recommend both books.

Bravery has chapters on making wine from pretty much anything I'd consider, and a few things I wouldn't. He goes into background regarding root, citrus fruit, flowers, herbs, and dried fruit/grain. It is interesting reading. [I haven't opened the book in many years and had a low opinion of it -- however, in leafing through it I find that my former opinion was in error.]

Anderson goes into technical detail, including how to use Pearson's Square for fortifying a wine.

He also has a recipe he calls "Sherry", using a 76 oz can of Spanish Fig concentrate and 1 gallon of California white grape concentrate.

While I can't find Spanish Fig concentrate online, I found a fig concentrate. This recipe spiked my curiosity.

 

[Scooter68]

What make the issue even more challenging is the affect that the weather can have on fruit. In a dry year smaller fruit are often the outcome BUT it appears that with some fruits and berries, the amount of flavor is higher - Along that line of that little bitty berry, nectarine, peach whatever still has the same total amount of sugar and flavor as fatter more water-fluffed fruit/berry would have in a year with more rain. The smaller fruits are almost 'pre-concentrated for us and we have to figure that out. That's the one thing that vineyard owners have to do is to track the content of their grapes each year. With us who have home orchards, berry patches etc we have to figure that out however we can. I guess a refractometer could do that but... that only measures the sugar not the flavor quality.

 

[user 32114]

on stout flavored fruits, an berries i at the very least double to triple the fruit,
i got 3#, 6-gal of banana bulk aging, i aint got my notes out, but i used 132 lb banana, cant remember either 20 or 40 lb apples, 35 lb golden raisins, 1 quart pineapple juice, and 10 to 15 3qt apple juice, the more the fruit the more the flavor profile,,,,Zero water, and lots of pectic enzyme plus i freeze all my fruits and berries before putting in must, and sugar to ABV you want, then after ferment i add K-meta/potassium metabisulfite, and potassium sorbate , than backsweeten to your preferred sweet.dry profile ,,,
Dawg

 

[Vinobeau]

on stout flavored fruits, an berries i at the very least double to triple the fruit,
i got 3#, 6-gal of banana bulk aging, i aint got my notes out, but i used 132 lb banana, cant remember either 20 or 40 lb apples, 35 lb golden raisins, 1 quart pineapple juice, and 10 to 15 3qt apple juice, the more the fruit the more the flavor profile,,,,Zero water, and lots of pectic enzyme plus i freeze all my fruits and berries before putting in must, and sugar to ABV you want, then after ferment i add K-meta/potassium metabisulfite, and potassium sorbate , than backsweeten to your preferred sweet.dry profile ,,,
Dawg

Well, I certainly would love to try that!! Ijust can't imagine what it would be like. Please keep us posted on the results.
It is my opinion that the earlier fruit wine authors were not trying to make a real fruity / syrupy wine. I believe that they were trying to replicate grape wines with fruity overtones, probably stemming from their lack of grapes to make the wine from. I have never had a wine (that I knew of) that was made with either all fruit or a large amount of fruit; and my belief is that it would have to be sweetened a lot to overcome the bitterness. And maybe I'm wrong!

 

[user 32114]

Well, I certainly would love to try that!! Ijust can't imagine what it would be like. Please keep us posted on the results.
It is my opinion that the earlier fruit wine authors were not trying to make a real fruity / syrupy wine. I believe that they were trying to replicate grape wines with fruity overtones, probably stemming from their lack of grapes to make the wine from. I have never had a wine (that I knew of) that was made with either all fruit or a large amount of fruit; and my belief is that it would have to be sweetened a lot to overcome the bitterness. And maybe I'm wrong!

nope, you're right on, for a country wine to taste like fruit or berries straight from the tee/bush/briar patch, then yes lots of sugar, where i'm from during the old days there was no soup kitchens, no food lines, you trapped or hunted your food, i remember dad saying when grandma got flour the 11 kids would eat raw flour while grandma was cooking poorboy gravy, that's a dop of grease, flour, water, dad was born in greene country in a barn with snow on the floor/dirt january 11-33, even nowadays, movies and song are 6 months behind the coast, regular tv, not dish cable, lol, life was very hard back then, shine was king, beer was way to yeasty, and wines were mainly elderberry, muscadine and dandelion, it was what they had back then, all other fruits and berries were food,
Dawg

 

[winemaker81]

It is my opinion that the earlier fruit wine authors were not trying to make a real fruity / syrupy wine. I believe that they were trying to replicate grape wines with fruity overtones, probably stemming from their lack of grapes to make the wine from.

In older books at least one author recommended using as little fruit as possible so the fruit flavors don't overwhelm the wine. [This is my paraphrase from memory of a text I read quite a while ago.] From that I gather that the intent was to make a replacement for grape wine. In my experience this makes a tasteless result.

I have never had a wine (that I knew of) that was made with either all fruit or a large amount of fruit; and my belief is that it would have to be sweetened a lot to overcome the bitterness.

Fruit wines generally need at least a bit of sweetening. Without sweetening, in my experience they tend to be astringent and lacking -- even a small amount of sugar brings out the fruit flavor.

@hounddawg likes his sweet. OTOH, I tend to sweeten mine very little. Both styles (and everything in between) produce a good result.

For my last batch of elderberry I added 3/4 cup sugar for 3.5 US gallons, which produced < 2% residual sugar. The second part of that batch I sweetened to about 14% residual sugar and bottled in splits (375 ml) as a dessert wine.

For an apple wine, I added 2 quarts commercial apple juice to 5 US gallons, which changed the SG from 0.990 to 0.994. The apple was dry, but the juice really enhanced the flavor. You wouldn't believe the unsweetened and sweetened were the same wine.

I don't fall into the "make fruit wine taste like grape" camp!

 

[Scooter68]

You're digging way back there Dawg. I was city born (North of Chicago - Naval Station there) but My mom made a visit once to Arkansas - don't know what part but here's the evidence of their travel. (I'm not in this picture) Estimate trip was in the 30's ??

 

[user 32114]

You're digging way back there Dawg. I was city born (North of Chicago - Naval Station there) but My mom made a visit once to Arkansas - don't know what part but here's the evidence of their travel. (I'm not in this picture) Estimate trip was in the 30's ??

View attachment 65027

yep dad was born 33 by 1943 he traveled by himself to wisconsin to pick fruit and at end of season from all over the USA, those 10 y/o and older came home so the family could live, whats really funny is my great grandpa edward robins was a harvard grad, his first 6 wives and their lineage are all very rich, but his last wife #7 was a full blood comanche and my lineage was considered sub human , and received nothing,
Dawg

 

[user 32114]

You're digging way back there Dawg. I was city born (North of Chicago - Naval Station there) but My mom made a visit once to Arkansas - don't know what part but here's the evidence of their travel. (I'm not in this picture) Estimate trip was in the 30's ??

View attachment 65027

mom was 6 months with me when dad went to work at quaker oats in rockford, and moved back to Arkansas,, when i was 2
Dawg

 

[winemanden]

yep dad was born 33 by 1943 he traveled by himself to wisconsin to pick fruit and at end of season from all over the USA, those 10 y/o and older came home so the family could live, whats really funny is my great grandpa edward robins was a harvard grad, his first 6 wives and their lineage are all very rich, but his last wife #7 was a full blood comanche and my lineage was considered sub human , and received nothing,
Dawg

Dawg, your dad was born same year as me. My dad was a fractured back, out of work, coal miner. He never worked until 1942. He started work again because "The Country needed him". Until 1942 miners were classed as essential workers exempt from military service. By that year, so many British soldiers had been killed they started drafting miners into the army. Not only that they drafted 14-18 year old lads into the pits, Bevin boys they were called. Those days we were poor, but happy, scrounging, foraging, and ragged arsed -That seems to be fashionable these days. I don't know about the USA, but in the UK, poverty is just a certain number of Uk £,s , even if you've got a car, TV, smart phone etc. They're definitely not happier than we were, that's a fact!

 

[winemanden]

I agree with Johnd. In my opinion, most published recipes seem to be written by people who prefer a wine that reminds them of the flavor of the fruit. Dilute fruit flavors is what they enjoy. It's true that SOME fruit is too acidic to make a good wine without some dilution and it is also true that for many folk the idea of spending so much money on peaches or apricots or mangoes or ??? to make a wine when water is much less expensive makes little sense.. but if you like the flavor of fruit then you might want to use as little water as possible to make your wine.

That said, many of the old country wine recipes do seem to use about 3 - 4 lbs of fruit per gallon. I dunno. Three pounds of strawberries to make a gallon of wine results (for me) in a wine that is flavor-thin, after all, it takes about 16 lbs of grapes to make a gallon of grape wine and about the same weight of apples to make a gallon of juice... and I don't know anyone who dilutes pressed grape juice or apple juice to make a wine, so why would it take three pounds of plums to make a plum wine or three pounds of strawberries to make a strawberry wine?

Bernard and Winemaker 81, I've got a book published 1981 called WINEMAKING with ELDERBERRIES BY T. Edwin Belt. There are 98 different recipes for Elderberry wine. The highest weight is 3lb (1.36 kg), smallest 1lb (0.45 kg), but and it's a big BUT, he adds loads of other fruits and grape concentrate. This poses the question, can you call it Elderberry wine when it's less than the other fruits in the recipe? I know it doesn't really matter if the wine is good.
PS there are a couple of recipes for a 2nd and a 3rd extraction from the Elderberries!!!
Also, somewhere tucked away I've got a book called MAKING WINES LIKE THOSE YOU BUY by Brian Acton and Peter Duncan. All the recipes are supposed to turn out the same as commercial grape wines. I've made a few of them, nice wines, but can't say that they're like the wines that you buy.

 

[Rice_Guy]

As a home wine maker you can call it what ever you want
As a industry person we name it based on the dominant flavor, elderberry has dominant tannic notes which can overwhelm lower flavor juices and the name may not be the dominant ingredient.
As an entrant at state fair I have to list largest ingredient first ,,, it is easy to break the extra juice into red grape then apple and finally white grape so there is lots of fruit in the backbone.

Interesting book suggestions, will have to do some hunting

I've got a book published 1981 called WINEMAKING with ELDERBERRIES BY T. Edwin Belt. There are 98 different recipes for Elderberry wine. The highest weight is 3lb (1.36 kg), smallest 1lb (0.45 kg), but and it's a big BUT, he adds loads of other fruits and grape concentrate. This poses the question, can you call it Elderberry wine when it's less than the other fruits in the recipe?