Amount of Fruit for Recipes

[winemaker81]

PS there are a couple of recipes for a 2nd and a 3rd extraction from the Elderberries!!!

I can see doing a 2nd extraction/2nd run on elderberries. Granted, the 2nd run will be lighter than the first, but it should produce a good outcome.

3rd extraction? That one I'll question. I've had 3rd run grape wines that tasted mostly like colored alcohol, with very little grape character. I've not tried it myself.

 

[hounddawg]

Bernard and Winemaker 81, I've got a book published 1981 called WINEMAKING with ELDERBERRIES BY T. Edwin Belt. There are 98 different recipes for Elderberry wine. The highest weight is 3lb (1.36 kg), smallest 1lb (0.45 kg), but and it's a big BUT, he adds loads of other fruits and grape concentrate. This poses the question, can you call it Elderberry wine when it's less than the other fruits in the recipe? I know it doesn't really matter if the wine is good.
PS there are a couple of recipes for a 2nd and a 3rd extraction from the Elderberries!!!
Also, somewhere tucked away I've got a book called MAKING WINES LIKE THOSE YOU BUY by Brian Acton and Peter Duncan. All the recipes are supposed to turn out the same as commercial grape wines. I've made a few of them, nice wines, but can't say that they're like the wines that you buy.

i do 2 elderberries or 1 and one blend , straight elderberry 5 lb per gallon, and a elderberry/blackberry blend, that's fermented together
Dawg

 

[hounddawg]

Dawg, your dad was born same year as me. My dad was a fractured back, out of work, coal miner. He never worked until 1942. He started work again because "The Country needed him". Until 1942 miners were classed as essential workers exempt from military service. By that year, so many British soldiers had been killed they started drafting miners into the army. Not only that they drafted 14-18 year old lads into the pits, Bevin boys they were called. Those days we were poor, but happy, scrounging, foraging, and ragged arsed -That seems to be fashionable these days. I don't know about the USA, but in the UK, poverty is just a certain number of Uk £,s , even if you've got a car, TV, smart phone etc. They're definitely not happier than we were, that's a fact!

my great grandpa on mom's side, a full blooded cherokee died of black lung from working in coal mines, that was deadly work back then,
Dawg

 

[Scooter68]

As a home wine maker you can call it what ever you want
As a industry person we name it based on the dominant flavor, elderberry has dominant tannic notes which can overwhelm lower flavor juices and the name may not be the dominant ingredient.
As an entrant at state fair I have to list largest ingredient first ,,, it is easy to break the extra juice into red grape then apple and finally white grape so there is lots of fruit in the backbone.

Interesting book suggestions, will have to do some hunting

I agree you can call it what you want but there is a reason that lists of ingredients by law (In some states) and custom list ingredients in order of quantity present. Sadly many beverage and food items are labeled as whatever the maker wants to call it - this means that many folks just look at the label, consume the item and believe that they had the 'real deal.' A great example is the Ocean Spray Juice drinks - you see that label that says 100% juice no added sugar and you decide to try some 100% Cran-Cherry drink. Look at the copy of their label (Posted below) and see what you are REALLY drinking. Yes, if you like it great. But when you are making a wine, be aware that if you use mixed flavors like that or even 'concentrates' the outcome may or may not be close to what you expected. (Ocean Spray Juices are a poor way to go in case you haven't tried them.)

I agree that in some cases the full strength flavor would be overwhelming and unpleasant to some folks but none-the-less I wish that labels on commercial items were required to clearly and up-front identify the flavors in things like Drinks and drink mixes. A leading seller of wine bases sells many of their wine bases with a label that on the front does NOT identify the primary flavor (by quantity) in their wine base. Consequently many folks buy and make decent wines with those wine bases BUT they are by no means 100% the "Named" flavor on that wine base.

Just a personal preference - I'd rather pay more get the real-deal and then modify the wine base as I see fit not as some corporate chemist/taste tester, determines.

 

[DizzyIzzy]

Most recipes call for an amount of fruit in bulk weight. Then the instructions say to cut, peel, stone, etc. I have been using the processed weight to get more fruit flavor. Example: 5 gallon Banana recipe called for 15 lbs. I weighed 7 bunches of bananas (21.5 lbs.). Then I peeled them and discarded the peels. Banana weight (15.17 lbs.). So in this example I am essentially increasing the actual banana weight by ~ 6 lbs. How have others treated the amount of fruit called for in recipes?

I always go for "the more fruit the better" mantra................................................Dizzy

 

[Rice_Guy]

@Scooter68 i reallly like “vegetable concentrate for color”,
that is what “natural” food rules do and YUP it has “no sugar added” cause cane sugar makes the kids bounce off the walls, ,,,,, at least that is what marketing says

 

[Scooter68]

@Scooter68 i reallly like “vegetable concentrate for color”, that is what “natural” food rules do and YUP it has “no sugar added” cause cane sugar makes the kids bounce off the walls, ,,,,, at least that is what marketing says

And what make that point so funny is that both Cranberries and Cherries have very deep colors so why do they have to 'add' color to the drink - unless we don't want to know what the exact process is that they use. Oooh Oooooh I know... because it's so diluted with Grape and Apple juice that all the color is lost.

Decades ago Monsanto had a ride at Disneyland where you rode and supposedly went into a microscope and were "shrunk down and injected into a human' (too long to give all the details) BUT AS you started down the ride the big sign with the Mosanto Logo said "Better living through chemicals" I kid you not. Funny to remember that was considered fine back then. We didn't have a clue about what might be in our foods.

At least with homemade wine I know what chemicals I choose to put into my wine.

 

[hounddawg]

In my vast lack of experience, i have found that the more fruit, the more robust the color, fascinating the thought of using more or less food coloring for color of wine, now i'm not complaining, how others do their wines, it is something i had never giving thought to, and yes my wines are expensive for me to make, but it ain't like any of yawl don't already know , i aint right,
Dawg

 

[Vinobeau]

And what make that point so funny is that both Cranberries and Cherries have very deep colors so why do they have to 'add' color to the drink - unless we don't want to know what the exact process is that they use. Oooh Oooooh I know... because it's so diluted with Grape and Apple juice that all the color is lost.

Decades ago Monsanto had a ride at Disneyland where you rode and supposedly went into a microscope and were "shrunk down and injected into a human' (too long to give all the details) BUT AS you started down the ride the big sign with the Mosanto Logo said "Better living through chemicals" I kid you not. Funny to remember that was considered fine back then. We didn't have a clue about what might be in our foods.

At least with homemade wine I know what chemicals I choose to put into my wine.

The juices are generally sans the skins, that is where most of the color is. This is a wine made from Cranberry sauce, 5 pounds of sauce per gallon. A pretty color in the carboy, but quite dull in a glass.

 

[Scooter68]

Vinobeau - I would say that if you used a canned cranberry sauce, you are already behind the curve on preserving color and flavor. I may be mistaken but most commercial canning processes don't worry a great deal about what their prep does to the qualities of the food product other than to make it taste and look decent in it's designed use. When you use it for something other than as a sauce... it's not going to hold up well. Homemade cranberry sauce that my family and my wife's family made always had the skins in it. (They cooked the berries, added sugar to reduce the tartness some and that was it.) Not sure than your store bought sauces will have those in them if that is what you used.

Perhaps you might have better results with something like this even if the cost is more... you get something made for the basis of wine making/brewing.

https://colomafrozen.com/industrial-products/cranberry-industrial-product They have several varieties of concentrates made for brewing/wine making. Again cost won't be as good as you might get using basic store bought products but it's certainly going to me more likely to provide a good outcome in flavor and color.

 

[winemaker81]

Just a personal preference - I'd rather pay more get the real-deal and then modify the wine base as I see fit not as some corporate chemist/taste tester, determines.

Agreed.

Couple years ago I purchased an elderberry concentrate, an impulse purchase. After I started the wine, I read the label .... lot of apple and grape juice in it.

That said, the wine came out good. I haven't made elderberry since the late 80's so I cannot tell you if it was as good as that from fresh elderberries. However, everyone who tastes it loves it .... so I'm not complaining.

However, @Scooter68 recommended a pure elderberry concentrate that I'll use next time.

 

[Vinobeau]

Vinobeau - I would say that if you used a canned cranberry sauce, you are already behind the curve on preserving color and flavor. I may be mistaken but most commercial canning processes don't worry a great deal about what their prep does to the qualities of the food product other than to make it taste and look decent in it's designed use. When you use it for something other than as a sauce... it's not going to hold up well. Homemade cranberry sauce that my family and my wife's family made always had the skins in it. (They cooked the berries, added sugar to reduce the tartness some and that was it.) Not sure than your store bought sauces will have those in them if that is what you used.

Perhaps you might have better results with something like this even if the cost is more... you get something made for the basis of wine making/brewing.

https://colomafrozen.com/industrial-products/cranberry-industrial-product They have several varieties of concentrates made for brewing/wine making. Again cost won't be as good as you might get using basic store bought products but it's certainly going to me more likely to provide a good outcome in flavor and color.

I'm sorry that I led you to think that I was not satisfied with the Cranberry sauce wine. It is quite good and I could care less about the lack of color. I've been making Cranberry wine since the mid 70's, and used real berries, wine concentrate, canned sauce & canned berries. They have all been perfectly drinkable and there has never been a problem with them turning bad.
I must admit one small quirk that I have with my wine making is that I purposely try to make wines a cheap as possible. That is one reason that I do not buy bottle and I reuse screw tops. My cost per bottle of this Cranberry wine will be about 61 cents, and that is mainly because sugar is up!! Too bad Arkansas is so far away, I'd love to trade some wine with you!

 

[Scooter68]

Hey Cheap is good, very good! The only juices I buy are those I REALLY want and can't get locally or free from our area. (Black Currant for example) Some of the juices like pineapple and mango just require a decision on how to get it. I've bought frozen mango chunks and realized that they aren't really ripe ripe fruit. Real mangos on sale are great but really messy to work with. So I understand and .... I've bought 1 case of "Split" bottles, a case of the Reusable beer/ale type bottle but everything else I dig out of the recycling bins at our city recycling center. Take time to get a 'matching set' of bottle for batches but that's part of the fun of it all. I looked into the glass 'corks' but ran into 2 issues 1) You have to buy like 300-400 of them at a time and 2) They all have to be the same size and recycled bottles don't always work out to be one size. So I have stuck with corks.

 

[winemaker81]

I use all Bordeaux-style bottles because they stack well. I have enough accumulated that I organize them by height. This way I use (mostly) uniform size bottles for each batch. I have purchased bottles, but that's pricy.

Anyone I give wine to has the understanding is that if I don't get the bottle back, they do NOT get more wine .....

 

[wpt-me]

As bottles here have a deposit on them, I can get them from recycle center for 15 cents each, then have
to clean real good and scrape the labels off.

Bill

 

[hounddawg]

Agreed.

Couple years ago I purchased an elderberry concentrate, an impulse purchase. After I started the wine, I read the label .... lot of apple and grape juice in it.

That said, the wine came out good. I haven't made elderberry since the late 80's so I cannot tell you if it was as good as that from freshgsn ju elderberries. However, everyone who tastes it loves it .... so I'm not complaining.

However, @Scooter68 recommended a pure elderberry concentrate that I'll use next time.

have you ever tried homewinery.com their concentrates are not really concentrates but a reduced concentrate , but structure it for 4 gallons per half gallon, buy #--3,, 1/2 gallon jugs n concentrate, to 12 gallon water, that gives you combined 13.5 gallons, which with topping off you end up with 12 very robust gallons of finished wine.
Dawg

 

[winemaker81]

@hounddawg, I was not familiar with homewinery.com. Got them bookmarked!

 

[Scooter68]

As bottles here have a deposit on them, I can get them from recycle center for 15 cents each, then have
to clean real good and scrape the labels off.

Bill

Well, I guess 15 cents per is still a good price as long as you get to pick them. And when you're done with them,,, you get your money back so not bad. label removal isn't fun but once you learn which brands and labels come off cleanly, that makes it a bit easier.

 

[wpt-me]

Once label is off no return !!

Bill

 

[DizzyIzzy]

As bottles here have a deposit on them, I can get them from recycle center for 15 cents each, then have
to clean real good and scrape the labels off.

Bill

That's good to know. My family live in Maine, and one of my nephews makes honey wines. I am sure he will appreciate knowing about the 15 cents/bottle. Thanks................................Dizzy