Another trellis thread (VSP)

[ZHill]

Look at the descriptions of the training system, maybe this will help you.

Thanks for those pictures. I've seen some "VSP" systems with 5 & 6 wires, so I didn't know if that was overkill. I figured it was.

I think for my project vineyard I'm going to plant Lenoir (Black Spanish). They're resistant to Pierce's Disease and mildew, and seem to favor the climate I live in extremely well. We deal with high humidity (80% + ) here in the part of Texas that I live in quite often, much more so than in the panhandle or North Texas.

 

[ZHill]

This is the property I was considering for the large vineyard. The bottom photo shows our stock pond & well, although they're hard to see behind all of the brush. It hasn't been sprayed in a few years, and because it's not shredded right now the slope is hard to see, but the land slopes from East to West downhill towards the stock pond. The drainage is good with no standing pools of water after heavy rains.

Chapter 26 of the Texas Water Code, I found out, states that I can pump 25,000 gallons per day out of my well to fill a pond or reservoir for livestock purposes. We've never worried about it because we have the pond, which is fed from the same spring that the well is. I'm assuming that this exemption also applies to crops as well. I need to find out if my area is regulated by the GDC, else I can pump all of the water that I want from the pond itself without any legal consequences.

 

[Johny99]

I don't have any experience with eye bolts. I'd be concerned about weakening the post by drilling a hole and all your tension has to be carried by the washer you use. I wrap my wire around the post, slip a staple vertically between it and the post to resist pull through and put one staple to keep it from sliding down the post. That one isn't tight, I leave room for the wire to slip as I tighten it. Fruiting and irrigation are one wire and for shoot wires I just loop at the other end, staple the same way and go back to the other end.

 

[ZHill]

I don't have any experience with eye bolts. I'd be concerned about weakening the post by drilling a hole and all your tension has to be carried by the washer you use. I wrap my wire around the post, slip a staple vertically between it and the post to resist pull through and put one staple to keep it from sliding down the post. That one isn't tight, I leave room for the wire to slip as I tighten it. Fruiting and irrigation are one wire and for shoot wires I just loop at the other end, staple the same way and go back to the other end.

I was going to use the eye bolts for suspension along my rows, not for fastening the wire at the ends. Even when staples are used they are still tacked on loosely from anything that I've read. The eye bolts will have to bear the weight of the vines & fruit, but I will still wrap my wire around my end posts and staple them rather than using vises. If I wind up being a cheapskate and using T-Posts I won't even bother with the eye bolt idea.

I figured the eye bolts would be more stable than staples, and being threaded and screwed into the post, I wouldn't have to worry about them coming loose. I can always put some silicone or other waterproofing material in the hole before I screw in the eye bolt if I drill pilot holes. I could use washers, as you mentioned, and if I did that I would get a paddle bit and create a flat surface before drilling a pilot hole.

 

[Johny99]

I was going to use the eye bolts for suspension along my rows, not for fastening the wire at the ends. Even when staples are used they are still tacked on loosely from anything that I've read. The eye bolts will have to bear the weight of the vines & fruit, but I will still wrap my wire around my end post and staple them rather than using vises.

Ash, sorry I misunderstood.

While I've never seen it, that should work. In addition, you can use the eye bolts to space your training wires which don't have much load on them.

 

[ZHill]

I was rummaging around on Google today and I found a winery less than 8 miles from my family's farm in the next town over, so I decided to stop by and ask them some questions. The owner not only gave me about an hour's worth of advice, but he also gave me a list of names and phone numbers of people he did business with when he set up his vineyard. He was kind enough to invite me back for a wine tasting this Friday, and offered to give me advice when I needed it, as well as look over my finished business plan free of charge when it was completed. He told me that it's near impossible for him to find enough grapes for his operation every season, listed 4 varieties that he would prefer I grow if I was interested in doing future business with his company, and told me that he would buy all of my product if I managed to get everything set up, and encouraged me to have it done by 2020. (Ha-ha-ha.)

He also quoted the local water rights laws and informed me that irrigating out of my stock pond or well is perfectly legal. He referred me to the man he used for his vineyard's irrigation and mentioned that the man set everything up for around $1000 an acre. He has some kind of co-op program set up for labor with the vineyards he deals with locally and mentioned that if I did business with him finding labor shouldn't be an issue.

It all sounds good, but am I crazy enough to follow through with this?

Less than 10 miles for the transportation of product? --- That'll definitely save some cash in the 5th year. That's as easy as driving our farm truck and using one of our cattle trailers for transport. I wouldn't have to worry about enclosed trailers and reefer units and I could deliver product as it was harvested every day.

 

[Johny99]

Sounds like you may have struck gold. If he is true hearted, at the very least you have someone to talk and get advice from along the way.

 

[ZHill]

Sounds like you may have struck gold. If he is true hearted, at the very least you have someone to talk and get advice from along the way.

The man filled me with ideas. I guess the good-ole boy system is still intact here in Texas. --- The first people I talked to were jerks. That small town hospitality still exists apparently.

I'm also thinking about clearing out some of our old structures and setting up a garden and wedding gazebo. Maybe put in some outdoor bathroom & wash facilities as well as a men's and women's dressing room, a small music stage, and maybe a pole barn structure that can be used to host outdoor events. Our pecan orchard area would probably make a nice outdoor wedding venue, I think anyway. I've seen similar venues here in Texas, with vineyards, go for as much as $3000 per day depending on the size of the venue. We have two old singlewide trailers that we use as workshops, but they're starting to get old and fall apart and need to go anyway. I could reuse some of the material and the garage foundation on one of them for a project or two.

The aesthetics of the place are pretty nice for Texas. An outdoor wedding / events venue + vineyard + orchard + airplane hangar and runway ... That just screams "cool" to me. I know the vineyard by itself probably won't be as profitable as I need it to be, plus all of the work involved. I'm trying to come up with secondary ideas and potential sources of income that compliment the vineyard idea to possibly offset the costs and upkeep of the vineyard itself.

 

[Johny99]

It is intriguing. A lot of our local wineries do weddings as well. I know for one that really struggled during the recession, I volunteered in the vineyard, set up a grass area among the vines with a picnic area with shade and weddings are what kept the afloat.

 

[ZHill]

It is intriguing. A lot of our local wineries do weddings as well. I know for one that really struggled during the recession, I volunteered in the vineyard, set up a grass area among the vines with a picnic area with shade and weddings are what kept the afloat.

That's what another vineyard did in the next county over according to the winery owner I spoke with. I don't have the funds to invest heavily into a secondary project, but I managed to work on a little bit of landscaping ideas.

If I do a few rows of vineyard next to our pecan orchard for aesthetics and put up a few privacy fences, I think I could rent it out. I thought about building a stage and creating a small music venue that would comfortably fit about 400 people, and adding a basic open shelter in a pole barn style with some banquet-styled tables that might seat 100. --- I knew some guys who did band promotion for clubs a few years ago. They suggested that idea. Our property is about 1 mile off of a major highway (Interstate 35 here in Texas, if you know the highway). While secluded and kind of off of the beaten path, it's not backwoods so to speak.

Back to the trellis system

Vineyards around here are using 2-wire cordon systems (3 with irrigation), but they're all the same owner I found out, so maybe he just has "a system?" Why? They said it was "just easier." Train the vine and flip it over the top wire, they said. Less pruning hassles. Etc. --- I didn't like that answer. One vineyard I checked out was using Sea Cane, which grows wild around here, notching it, and wedging it between the 2 wires. That seemed to work well from what I saw. The canes were removed once the vines went over the top wire, so I'm assuming. (Some areas of the vineyard had no cane.)

I'm going to shoot for Luneoir and Blanc du Bois. --- Is a 2-wire system viable for these varieties? It would definitely save me some money on wire, not that wire is a big expense whatsoever.

 

[balatonwine]

Vineyards around here are using 2-wire cordon systems (3 with irrigation), but they're all the same owner I found out, so maybe he just has "a system?" Why?

A two wire trellis is a jack of all trades type of vine support system. It works for many different grapes varieties that tend to have an upward growth tendency with high to medium vigor. But being a jack of all trades, it is master of none. Those seeking to make a high quality wine tend to use other trellis systems that optimize the variety being grown in relation to the local environmental conditions. And yet, in some cases, the best system may actually be 2 wires. But simply because it is easy or cheaper is not really a good reason (unless one is just wanting to grow "table wine" grapes).

And a two wire trellis (sometimes called a simple curtain) is not really a true VSP since it does not create the typical "hedge" structure one gets when using the more common 4 to 6 wires needed for VSP.

I'm going to shoot for Luneoir and Blanc du Bois. --- Is a 2-wire system viable for these varieties? It would definitely save me some money on wire, not that wire is a big expense whatsoever.

Since the best trellis is something that is based on local conditions and experience from trial and error, the best sources to answer would be local growers associations or extensions. For example, the Texas Cooperative Extension at Texas A&M mighe be most helpful with questions about varieties and trellis design (and also to direct you where to get help with pre-planting tasks like soil testing).

 

[ZHill]

A two wire trellis is a jack of all trades type of vine support system. It works for many different grapes varieties that tend to have an upward growth tendency with high to medium vigor. But being a jack of all trades, it is master of none. Those seeking to make a high quality wine tend to use other trellis systems that optimize the variety being grown in relation to the local environmental conditions. And yet, in some cases, the best system may actually be 2 wires. But simply because it is easy or cheaper is not really a good reason (unless one is just wanting to grow "table wine" grapes).

And a two wire trellis (sometimes called a simple curtain) is not really a true VSP since it does not create the typical "hedge" structure one gets when using the more common 4 to 6 wires needed for VSP.



Since the best trellis is something that is based on local conditions and experience from trial and error, the best sources to answer would be local growers associations or extensions. For example, the Texas Cooperative Extension at Texas A&M mighe be most helpful with questions about varieties and trellis design (and also to direct you where to get help with pre-planting tasks like soil testing).

Thanks. I've been on A&M's AgriLife website quite a bit, but there wasn't much on trellis design that I haven't also found eslewhere. I might try calling over there next week. Texas Tech's online information has been about the same. They list all of the different types of trellises, but give no information as to what type is best suited for X variety.

 

[ZHill]

This is probably the best PDF I've read through so far. Good detail...

This one actually does list some varieties and their preferred trellis system, but it stops at 67 pages ... where the information that I really want is.
If someone could find me the whole version of this PDF, I'd probably have the information that I need. --- Check it out, go to page 67 and look where it stops. When I read through it I thought maybe it just didn't download the whole file. Nope. I got the whole file, it's just cut short.



http://www.prairiefirewinery.com/Cellar/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Vineyard-Trellis-Construction.pdf

I went through about 20 pages of Google trying to find another copy of this PDF.

 

[sour_grapes]

This is probably the best PDF I've read through so far. Good detail...

This one actually does list some varieties and their preferred trellis system, but it stops at 67 pages ... where the information that I really want is.
If someone could find me the whole version of this PDF, I'd probably have the information that I need. --- Check it out, go to page 67 and look where it stops. When I read through it I thought maybe it just didn't download the whole file. Nope. I got the whole file, it's just cut short.



http://www.prairiefirewinery.com/Cellar/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Vineyard-Trellis-Construction.pdf

I went through about 20 pages of Google trying to find another copy of this PDF.

Unfortunately, the person who wrote that presentation, Prof. Paul Domoto, is now retired. You could try his email ([email protected]), or you could write to the department chair of his old department and ask if he knows of another way to contact him. The chair is Jeff Iles ([email protected]).

 

[sour_grapes]

It might be available here, but you have to sign up for an account: http://download.manualsdocs.com/file/constructing-a-vineyard-trellis-iowa-state-university.html

Here is another copy of the same thing as you have: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1110/5428/files/domototrellis.pdf What exactly makes you think the file is cut off?

 

[balatonwine]

Thanks. I've been on A&M's AgriLife website quite a bit, but there wasn't much on trellis design that I haven't also found eslewhere. I might try calling over there next week. Texas Tech's online information has been about the same. They list all of the different types of trellises, but give no information as to what type is best suited for X variety.

My intent of providing the link to A&M was to provide a contact source to call. Not to give a singular online source to your questions, because there is none. Web pages, books, PDF files, etc will give you background knowledge, but will never answer your specific questions fully. You indeed need professional consultation. And there are many state and local resources there to help farmers so do take advantage of them.

Again, every site is different. And every site needs to be individually evaluated by someone who has done this before, professionally, to give you the best options. Thus, there is no such thing as the best trellis type for variety X, because trellis types depends on too many combined factors which include the vineyard site, financial issues, etc. Not just the grape. And site factors will vary between site. A site can be as small as an acre or as large as an entire AOC. I am growing the exact same variety using two different systems in two different vineyards specifically because of site differences; which unfortunately increases costs since two different types of tools and green work are needed, but I take that financial hit to grow the best grapes at each site.

It is one thing for a hobby farmer to do trial and error in their vineyard from online information -- that can be part of the hobby, finding what works best via a process. But commercial growers need to call in some real human experts (not just local farmers who may be doing it sub-optimally just because it is easy). Too much money is at sake. Not to say one can go it alone using information self gathered, and maybe make a profit. But one probably would have made an even larger profit seeking out and following personal, professional advise. But be warned: in an area just starting viticulture there are a lot of unknowns where even the best knowledge still is based on a lot of imperfect data. You will have to take some risks that what you do will not be optimal.

 

[ZHill]

Here is another copy of the same thing as you have: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1110/5428/files/domototrellis.pdf What exactly makes you think the file is cut off?

It cuts off at page 67. Look at page 66. Page 67 is a continuation of the information provided on 66, but the page is cut off.

 

[WeimarWine]

Sorry for the late post to your thread, but I have been away from the site for quite some time and am just now getting back to reading it daily. Since you are considering growing Blanc Du Bois and/or Lenoir aka Black Spanish, you might want to look into another trellis training system sometimes referred to as the Watson High Cordon developed by Jerry Watson in Cat Spring TX.

I grow both of these grape varieties, but chose a VSP or more accurately a Smart-Dyson system which utilizes 3 sets of double catch wires above the fruiting wire and one set of double catch wires below the fruiting wire. I am able to train some of the Blanc Du Bois shoots to grow in a downward direction, thus increasing the number of shoots per foot that I can grow with Blanc Du Bois. Lenoir, on the other hand, does not like to grow downward.

If you choose a VSP or 3 wire trellis system other than the high cordon, one other bit of advice I can pass along is to stand flat footed and bend your elbow at 90 degrees so that your forearm is parallel to the ground and use that as the height for your fruiting wire. When it comes time for pruning this will relieve a lot of pressure from your lower back from having to bend forward at the waist to make the pruning cuts.

WeimarWine