WineXpert Anyone know for sure???

[Spikedlemon]

Having had a few of the "Hybrid" grapes that are used for cold hardiness: I'm not one to believe that it's the taste to which you detect.

Baco Noir & Vidal are two heavily planted hybrids here (mostly because they don't have the 'foxy' taste) - one of those two I enjoy and the other I know is likely used in every single commercial white wine in Ontario as a filler (VQA requires 85% for varietal naming - higher than many regions such as Oregon at 75%). Both are commonly used for blending with varietal wines as they are hardy grapes with good yields.

Marechal Foch, on the other hand, has an unmistakable foxy taste & aroma (which I cannot stand).

The taste I find with kits is not the foxy taste I find in a Hybrid like Marechal Foch.

Now I did detect that EXACT SAME flavor in a Beaujolais Nouveau last year (and a hint of it in another Gamay Nouveau from Canada). It's a wine that's only intention is to be rushed from field to glass as quickly as possible. Is it possible that, the taste to me, is a culprit from one of (or combination of) fast-acting wine yeasts, fast processing, fast extracting, limited skin contact, limited oxidation (no age and/or barrel time), low sulfite levels, or limited ageing? All of which could be part of it.

 

[Tnuscan]

Let me know what you think if you purchase one, I may try one out myself if I do, I will let you know too.

 

[Johnd]

Hi
Well thank you very much. That is excellent news. If what you say is correct, then I am in the kit business again. I will contact them myself.

When you made yours, was there any trace of that infamous 'kit taste and smell' after fermentation? It is so distinctive to me that I nearly threw all mine away. I then decided to just let it be in storage and try a bottle once a year. I will of course be dead by the time it is ready!

You're quite welcome, but remember, it's not what I say, it's what they say, I'm just a reporter with no vested interest other than trying to make the best stuff I can. Below are my opinions, and not really looking for a debate, it's just what I think after making 50+ kits.

As far as "kit taste", I'm one of those that doesn't seem to detect what some abhor as kit taste. None of my wines taste good after fermentation, whether kit of grapes, but the good qualities are distinguishable (amongst the bitterness, greenness, astringency, yeast, mouth puckering) even when young, it's how they evolve as they finish the maturation process that matters. When I taste young wines from most kits, they all taste pretty similar to me when, but have found that the differences are increased as they age. I have some well over two years and they are quite different now, the barrel aged ones being generally better than the "oaked in a carboy" wines, and have lots of both.

My personal feeling is that the similarity is not related to what is in them, but more to what is not. What's not in them are all of the chemical and physiological changes and by products that occur when grape juice is fermented with the pulp, seeds and skins in which they were created. Cold maceration and soaking with skins are a great process in grape winemaking, but it's only a precursor to the extraction that takes place under the fermentation actions of wine yeasts and alcohol, and doesn't, in my opinion, take the place of that fermentation on skins. If one bought a load of red grapes, crushed, destemmed and cold macerated them, pressed the juice off of the skins, flash pasteurized it, and fermented that juice, that wine would suck compared to the same exact grape wine fermented on the skins.

All that said, even though the purportedly all juice wine kits are very good, and I have made some very enjoyable wines with them (and other kits as well), I like my well made grape stuff better. I say well made because it's not as easy as a kit, when you are dealing with all that mother nature offers you and it's much easier to encounter problems when you are dealing with all of the sugar and acid fluctuations, nutrient and MLF issues, etc..

Does my 2 year old, barrel aged Meglioli OVZ taste like a $25 Turley Zinfandel? No, it does not, but it's pretty decent. Does my 2 year old barrel aged Meglioli "Amarone Style" wine taste like a 2008 Nicolis Amarone? No, not even close, but it's a pretty good wine. I made an All Juice Masters Edition Pinot Grigio a couple years back, it's as good as the Pinot Gris I made from frozen juice last year, but the whole fermenting on skins thing doesn't apply to whites, does it? Is it interesting that white kits are much more palatable and similar to commercial wines of the same varietal?

Kit makers kind of hose themselves when they tout their high end kits as being 12 week or 10 week, or whatever week kits. Folks think they are ready to drink, and if you have a discerning palate, they are not even ready to bottle in that time frame. The truth is, if you want to make a decent wine from a high quality kit or grapes (nouveau excluded), that sh*t needs to sit....Period.....

Anyway, my thoughts for whatever it's worth. Give it a shot, make it like a grape wine, get one with skins, add more skins if you have some, don't use sorbate, don't use clearing agents, barrel age it, and let it sit at least a year before you bottle it. For me, after a year in bulk, and a year + bottled in the cellar, the product is pretty decent for the price............

 

[marathon]

Nice really valid comments in the last few posts

It does 'appear' that some can/cannot taste what I consider is a 'foxy' taste. I think it must be a specific gene related to Neaderthals in the UK evolving to drink only mead or is it tea? Hybrids are interesting as probably most commercial wines will use hybrids in the future. But it is illegal in the EU for vitis labrusca uncrossed etc to be grown at present. But it is in the kits I purchased IMO.

My experience of kits was that I made dozens of them and they were really good and drinkable very quickly. 30 years later I restarted (2 years ago) and hit a brick wall of a strange tasting and smelling product. ' Wine Jim but not as we know it'. I call it kool-Aid wine. My own home-made is as expected and ok! So I blame the kit and I am sticking to it. I have to blame something as it cannot possibly be me!!!!!

 

[Tnuscan]

Nice really valid comments in the last few posts

It does 'appear' that some can/cannot taste what I consider is a 'foxy' taste. I think it must be a specific gene related to Neaderthals in the UK evolving to drink only mead or is it tea? Hybrids are interesting as probably most commercial wines will use hybrids in the future. But it is illegal in the EU for vitis labrusca uncrossed etc to be grown at present. But it is in the kits I purchased IMO.

My experience of kits was that I made dozens of them and they were really good and drinkable very quickly. 30 years later I restarted (2 years ago) and hit a brick wall of a strange tasting and smelling product. ' Wine Jim but not as we know it'. I call it kool-Aid wine. My own home-made is as expected and ok! So I blame the kit and I am sticking to it. I have to blame something as it cannot possibly be me!!!!!

I,ve never tasted it anywhere other than kits it 's nowhere like bazooka bubble gum or any other bubble gum.

I have had them @ 2 years in bottle, still there too. White wines also, even 2 years plus and it was still there in them.

I did make a WE Island Mist Coconut Yuzu following joeswine tweeks and I can tolerate the smell/taste issue better, it's still there but muffled by the coconut addition.

One of the most important things I was hopping, was that ,No one felt like I was bashing these companies. And also that the people that detect this aren't bad wine makers or unsanitary in the making of their wine kits.

If you notice the same smell/taste issue as I do or even another one and it does not suit you, move towards another wine making technique. And if I ever find a tweek that eliminates the issue, for me, I'll post it.

It is like having too much oak or sugar or whatever, once it's in the wine, It's in the wine.

 

[marathon]

So true. Are you saying that even if I leave my strange wine for 2 years or more it will still taste the same? I am with you exactly.
The taste and smell is so very interesting and difficult to identify and we all will 'see' it slightly differently. I still think it is: methyl anthranilate. It can also be identified in grape juice.
The 'geek' bit below is important because of how it causes concern, can be identified and taints wine so easily in very low amounts.

A key difference between vinifera and hybrids with American grape varieties is the way they synthesize their color compounds, called anthocyanins. In vinifera, the color compounds are usually found bound to a sugar molecule (glycosylated). This increases their stability and solubility in the wine. American varieties (and most hybrids therefrom) add two sugar molecules (diglycosylated). A simple test called TLC (thin layer chromatography) can be done on wine to determine if the anthocyanins have one or two sugars, and the presence of diglycosylated anthocyanin means the presence of hybrid juice.
The identified genetic reason for the lack of double sugar addition in vinifera vines (a double mutation inactivates the protein responsible, called 5GT). The (i.e., the principal "foxy" compound) is located very near the 5GT gene's location in the plant's DNA. The close proximity of these genes implies that they might go together during plant breeding. Therefore, the relatively simple TLC test for the 5GT gene could possibly be an indicator of foxiness in the grape juice and could assist breeders in the future seeking to eliminate methyl anthranilate. 'Kit taste/ foxy'.
My take on what the problem of these kits is and the reason why In the EU some grape types are not allowed.

 

[Tnuscan]

So true. Are you saying that even if I leave my strange wine for 2 years or more it will still taste the same? I am with you exactly.
The taste and smell is so very interesting and difficult to identify and we all will 'see' it slightly differently. I still think it is: methyl anthranilate. It can also be identified in grape juice.
The 'geek' bit below is important because of how it causes concern, can be identified and taints wine so easily in very low amounts.

A key difference between vinifera and hybrids with American grape varieties is the way they synthesize their color compounds, called anthocyanins. In vinifera, the color compounds are usually found bound to a sugar molecule (glycosylated). This increases their stability and solubility in the wine. American varieties (and most hybrids therefrom) add two sugar molecules (diglycosylated). A simple test called TLC (thin layer chromatography) can be done on wine to determine if the anthocyanins have one or two sugars, and the presence of diglycosylated anthocyanin means the presence of hybrid juice.
The identified genetic reason for the lack of double sugar addition in vinifera vines (a double mutation inactivates the protein responsible, called 5GT). The (i.e., the principal "foxy" compound) is located very near the 5GT gene's location in the plant's DNA. The close proximity of these genes implies that they might go together during plant breeding. Therefore, the relatively simple TLC test for the 5GT gene could possibly be an indicator of foxiness in the grape juice and could assist breeders in the future seeking to eliminate methyl anthranilate. 'Kit taste/ foxy'.
My take on what the problem of these kits is and the reason why In the EU some grape types are not allowed.

No, the wine itself does change, the aroma and the taste of the juice does become different, but the smell/taste issue never leaves and is so offensive it ruins the enjoyment of drinking it.

When they are young, I can't tell them apart, except for the oak levels, like, 1 bag verses 3 bags of oak. The ingredients do impart their own taste characteristics also.

But before I give up, I've got to give the one Johnd mentioned a try. I have looked at buying one of them for several years. Instead I've taken the 200 bucks and bought 8 dollar wine I knew was enjoyable.

 

[Tnuscan]

It makes me think of a squeak in a automobile, it drives you nuts until you figure out whats making it.

 

[Brian55]

It makes me think of a squeak in a automobile, it drives you nuts until you figure out whats making it.

It drives you nuts until you figure out how to eliminate it.

 

[Tnuscan]

It drives you nuts until you figure out how to eliminate it.

It sounds like its coming from the dashboard.

 

[sour_grapes]

Sure it's not the nut behind the steering wheel?

 

[Tnuscan]

Sure it's not the nut behind the steering wheel?

Lol, That's true, no one hears them but me.

 

[Spikedlemon]

But it is illegal in the EU for vitis labrusca uncrossed etc to be grown at present. But it is in the kits I purchased IMO.

Can you clarify that comment? I'm not sure what you're trying to say there.

The identified genetic reason for the lack of double sugar addition in vinifera vines (a double mutation inactivates the protein responsible, called 5GT). The (i.e., the principal "foxy" compound) is located very near the 5GT gene's location in the plant's DNA. The close proximity of these genes implies that they might go together during plant breeding. Therefore, the relatively simple TLC test for the 5GT gene could possibly be an indicator of foxiness in the grape juice and could assist breeders in the future seeking to eliminate methyl anthranilate. 'Kit taste/ foxy'.

Is this just Labrusca varietals or does it include Riparia varietas as well?

Riparia is used for grafted root stock. And as the parent of hybrids, of both Marechal Foch and Baco Noir, it can have great variances of presence of 'foxy' flavors (such as the two examples noted). - or at least to my palette. Perhaps better selection during breeding could eliminate/minimize this.

 

[marathon]

I think I am saying that where you find methyl anthranilate in sufficient amounts from any source, you will find variable 'kit taste etc. Riparia is a cousin so presumably used only as a root stock is fine. I do not know about regulations with regard to its usage in the EU.
If commercially they do not want a known 'foxy' grape in wines, then why are kit manufacturers using grape juice that contains said substance.
I have contacted Mosti Mondiale but have yet to get a reply about any use of concord grapes in their kits.

 

[willj]

Interesting discussion. I know nothing about this subject but found this link which is quite interesting...
http://midwestwinepress.com/2014/01/16/labruscas-really-make-bad-wine/

 

[marathon]

I did read that article. Hmmmm!
The article has taken an interesting slant on the subject. The EU bans Labrusca for very good reasons at the moment. Labrusca does remind me of some Cypriot wines, but they have been phylloxera free. It may be worth looking at Fragalino as an interesting addition.
I know one important thing. I would dearly love to drink my wine all day long, but it not to my taste in any way unfortunately. We do have the rest of the world who are free to produce what they want and they choose to produce.........! I wonder why ?

 

[Tnuscan]

Here is my theory on why I pick up the smell/taste issue with the kits. It is an assumption, a guess, but it makes some sense to me.


Most people are aware that MLF on a kit wine is, instant ruin. That is because they use sorbate in their process, so I'm told. ;-) During their processing the must goes through at least one if not two very low temperature settings. (at or below freezing). The Grapes because they buy them by the Mega Tons probably have higher acids. The predominate acid in grapes is Tartaric acid.


One way to make tartaric less acidic is to add, calcium carbonate or potassium carbonate before fermentation. This lowers the Total Acidity and raises the pH. Without MLF the one way to make the malic less acidic is to use the double salt method , malic needing to be at a higher percentage.... and following the instructions.

One of the wines I made from Grapes ended up having a higher TA than what I wanted. I added K-biCarb. to it and cold stabilized it for 5 weeks. It does Not have this issue.

A few weeks ago I took a Fontana Merlot that Joe uses in his tweeking thread, and because I over tweeked it, the acid was a little high. Now when tweeked as joe instructs, the increase in alochol and tannin balance out the acids, and, I don't notice the smell/taste issue as much.

I took a liter of my overtweeked kit wine and added K-biCarb. to bring the TA down to 5.5 g/L and put it in the cold for a few weeks. I racked it to a new bottle and after warming to room temps and degassing, tasted, and it was a little bland and the smell/taste issue had increased greatly. I added a little tartaric to it and I realized this is the reason for my smell/taste issue. Salts.

Salts that are left behind. Maybe the Vacuum Concentrator along with maybe... ( The double salt method using Calcium Carbonate).

What do you think??????

 

[marathon]

Hi , That is very interesting worth further research.

My own bit of news:

Through an importer in the UK we discussed in detail the 'kit' problem and they said they very were aware of the 'kit' issue and imported just Mosti Mondiale. They had contacted Mosti Mondiale on my behalf again and the importer said that as far as they were aware, only one kit maker, Mosti Mondiale, made kits correctly with none of the labrusca type grapes to contaminate the wine produced. That was why they only imported from them. They suggested the Masters or Meglioli. Or even to try the Renaissance kits. I did not inquire about the juice pails They also said that the othe rmanufacturers kits were coming basically out of one factory and that what came out as a kit, was 'most interesting' !! They did say more but.... not for this forum.

I also read some very interesting articles regarding some rather interesting practices involving making commercial wine with grape concentrate rectified must and more! It appears that importers of grape juice concentrates have been adding them to normal wine juice. This is all hearsay of course, but the more you investigate the more interesting it all gets!