auto-siphon issues, when to rack out of secondary, and a bunch of other beginner questions

[Ajmassa]

I was wondering that. That if I can correct with acid after I give the MLB a chance. If it tastes like it's missing acid before bottling, I can then add some back with tartaric?

Thanks for sharing regarding the juice buckets! It's interesting the kits do things so differently. Is that specifically because they skip the MLB fermentation? I know not all wines benefit from it so I guess that wouldn't always be the case. I guess obviously time is a factor as many advertise as drinkable in 28 days or so.

“Drinkable” key word. Lol

who knows man. All juice bucket manufacturers processes vary too. Same as the kits. And not all are forthcoming with info. Take this one for instance. “POSSIBLY citric acid”.

all I know is this for red wine:
Fresh grapes/frozen must- acid adjustments may be needed. MLF benefits .
Fresh seasonal juice - no acid adjusting needed typically. Benefits from MLF
kits-no adjusting needed. No mlf

 

[Ajmassa]

(Sighs with relief).... Cheers, thx for sharing your knowledge. I'll try to remember to come back here as the batch progresses and give any relevant updates. From the looks of the forum so far I'll likely be spending a long time lurking through some of the great threads.

Yea man. I made wine for a bunch of years from seasonal juice. Learned from family’s ‘old style’ winemaking which isn’t much different than how they made wine in biblical times! Though it did help me. Basing all knowledge from kits instructions you’d think the wine is a delicate flower and every step could make or break it. But you could probably dump your fermenting wine into your workboots and it would finish dry lol.
This forum has helped me tremendously. Much different than many other online forums. No trolling ******** here. Just ppl who genuinely enjoy talking shop and offering advice.

 

[DoctorCAD]

Warning!!! DO NOT ADD THE SORBATE PACK TO THE KIT. You probably wrecked this kit, as kits are not blended to require or even need MLF, but if you do add the sorbate, it will completely destroy the flavor and the smell of the wine.

Don't ask me how I know.

 

[Ajmassa]

Warning!!! DO NOT ADD THE SORBATE PACK TO THE KIT. You probably wrecked this kit, as kits are not blended to require or even need MLF, but if you do add the sorbate, it will completely destroy the flavor and the smell of the wine.

Don't ask me how I know.

I disagree. The kit is not “wrecked” at all

 

[purpletongue]

Warning!!! DO NOT ADD THE SORBATE PACK TO THE KIT. You probably wrecked this kit, as kits are not blended to require or even need MLF, but if you do add the sorbate, it will completely destroy the flavor and the smell of the wine.

Don't ask me how I know.

Hmm, there seems to be a couple different views on this. I'm curious to know why sulfite would do anything but kill the MLB. If the flavor is changed I would assume that would happen if the MLB becomes active and throws the acid balance out of wack. But why would adding sulphite react with the living / dormant / or dead MLB to produce off flavor or smell? What reaction would that be?

EDIT: I didn't realize there were two preservatives at play in the kit. Sulfite won't react with MLB to produce anything bad. But Sorbate will. As pointed out by cmason1957 it can react with the lactic acid bacteria (produced by the MLB) to produce a geranium smell.

 

[cmason1957]

Hmm, there seems to be a couple different views on this. I'm curious to know why sulfite would do anything but kill the MLB. If the flavor is changed I would assume that would happen if the MLB becomes active and throws the acid balance out of wack. But why would adding sulphite react with the living / dormant / or dead MLB to produce off flavor or smell? What reaction would that be?

Sulfites are ok to add. Don't really know if they kill the MLB or just stun it for an unknown amount of time. But the Sorbate, which many kit makers now mix with the sulfite in one package can cause that geranium smell.

 

[purpletongue]

Sulfites are ok to add. Don't really know if they kill the MLB or just stun it for an unknown amount of time. But the Sorbate, which many kit makers now mix with the sulfite in one package can cause that geranium smell.

I see. I just checked my kit instructions and it does include sorbate and instructs to add it with the meta bisulphite.

I found this here: https://winemakersacademy.com/potassium-sorbate-wine-making/

Usually you wouldn’t add potassium sorbate to a dry red wine because the sugars have been completely exhausted and the additive is not needed.

Since I'm planning on taking it fully dry maybe I'll be OK without the sorbate?

The second limitation of potassium sorbate is the length of time it is effective. Once added to wine it stays in the desirable form of sorbic acid only for a short time. Over time it breaks down into ethyl sorbate which can add notes of pineapple or celery to your wine.

The change into ethyl sorbate is not preventable. By using potassium sorbate winemakers are putting a definite shelf life on their wines before they pick up these off flavors.

The third limitation is that it reacts poorly with lactic acid bacteria. According to my research it can produce strong geranium odors which most wine drinkers consider a flaw.

Because of these limitations many wineries do not use potassium sorbate. They opt to stabilize with sulfites only an rely on their ability to properly sanitize everything to prevent spoilage. Interestingly, wines with potassium sorbate may not be classified as organic.

Wondering if I should ever be adding sorbate with kits since I like dry wines .

 

[purpletongue]

Yea man. I made wine for a bunch of years from seasonal juice. Learned from family’s ‘old style’ winemaking which isn’t much different than how they made wine in biblical times! Though it did help me. Basing all knowledge from kits instructions you’d think the wine is a delicate flower and every step could make or break it. But you could probably dump your fermenting wine into your workboots and it would finish dry lol.
This forum has helped me tremendously. Much different than many other online forums. No trolling ******** here. Just ppl who genuinely enjoy talking shop and offering advice.

It's nice to learn from someone. I did a lot of research but still was disappointed with the auto-siphon. Some things you just have to expect won't go your way I guess.

Lol workboot wine. Footy with notes of cellar. Some old leather coming through...

Great to hear about the forum. It's already helped me so much in my first post! Ya, trolls....the bane of modern life.

 

[purpletongue]

who knows man. All juice bucket manufacturers processes vary too. Same as the kits. And not all are forthcoming with info. Take this one for instance. “POSSIBLY citric acid”.

LOL possibly. That's hilarious. It's their secret "instant" brew.

all I know is this for red wine:
Fresh grapes/frozen must- acid adjustments may be needed. MLF benefits .
Fresh seasonal juice - no acid adjusting needed typically. Benefits from MLF
kits-no adjusting needed. No mlf

Thanks for these concise tips!

 

[sour_grapes]

Since I'm planning on taking it fully dry maybe I'll be OK without the sorbate?

Yes, exactly. If you do not intend to add sugar afterwards, skip the sorbate. Almost all of us do.

 

[purpletongue]

Yes, exactly. If you do not intend to add sugar afterwards, skip the sorbate. Almost all of us do.

Sounds good. Thx for confirming. Boy I'm glad I reached out on this forum!

 

[purpletongue]

Warning!!! DO NOT ADD THE SORBATE PACK TO THE KIT. You probably wrecked this kit, as kits are not blended to require or even need MLF, but if you do add the sorbate, it will completely destroy the flavor and the smell of the wine.

Don't ask me how I know.

Thx for the warning about sorbate. I didn't realize there was two preservatives at play. I think my book just talks about using sulphite.

 

[szap]

One thing I have found that causes the issue you describe is the siphon hose not fitting tight enough on the siphon.

 

[purpletongue]

One thing I have found that causes the issue you describe is the siphon hose not fitting tight enough on the siphon.

Ya I read that and that sometimes the seal on the smaller inner tube get's mucked up and needs fixing or replacing. I think for the next rack I won't mess with the auto-siphon.

 

[purpletongue]

So just a little update. I thiefed some wine out of my carboy yesterday to test and try.

I really wouldn't be worried about the air introduced at this point. A small amount of air exposure won't hurt anything at this point. And, I hate to break it to you, but I will bet dollars to donuts that your wine is NOT "degassed quite a bit." I will bet you are still quite fizzy. (Go ahead and taste a sip if you want to find out.)

Actually to my surprise it was quite flat. I didn't taste any little bubbles. Though I do see some small bubbles around the top of the carboy where the juice is. And it still is burping c02 every 68 seconds. My plan is still to degass though.

That is correct and it really means 0.990 and 0.980, the 9 isn't shown, but you are below 1.000 so it is assumed. For further proof look at the line on your hydrometer marked as 1.100, just above that is 1.090, so at the 1.000 line just above that is 0.990. Pure water is at 1.000 and since you have alcohol in your wine now and alcohol is less dense than water, you are at 0.990.

I think I was in error when I recorded the 0.990. When I tested it last the SG was 0.998.

The temp has been remarkably stable now for the last few days. 65.8 and the room is 65.1.

It tasted like wine, but a bit weak and not really quite like normal table wine? Hard to describe. I tried to take some notes on it but to be honest it was sort of confusing to describe. It's a Cabernet Sauvignon, juice from Cali I believe.

Here's my notes:

Clearing up quite a bit but still cloudy, sort of blood red, taste a bit of strawberry some funkiness and residual yeast. It has some legs but not a ton. Still a bit sour but good astringency. A bit flat tasting, slightly acidic and no sweetness, alcohol tastes diluted likely from the water probably down to 9% or so, definitely some high acid hopefully the malolactic kicks in.

 

[Ajmassa]

The wine is still in the womb, not even a newborn yet! Gotta let it grow up a little first.

Don’t worry about the auto siphon issues. You may not taste it on the tongue but the wine still has plenty of co2 in there. It won’t always bubble thru the airlock- but it’s there. If there’s ever a time where being rough with the wine is ok it’s the timeframe directly after fermentation.

I’m always splash racking those first few racks.

 

[sour_grapes]

So just a little update. I thiefed some wine out of my carboy yesterday to test and try.


Actually to my surprise it was quite flat. I didn't taste any little bubbles. Though I do see some small bubbles around the top of the carboy where the juice is. And it still is burping c02 every 68 seconds. My plan is still to degass though.

Okay, I guess I owe you a donut then! Or is it that I owe you a dollar? -- I can never remember which way that is supposed to go...

Glad to hear it seems to be going well. I agree with @Ajmassa that you don't have much to fear at this point.

 

[purpletongue]

The wine is still in the womb, not even a newborn yet! Gotta let it grow up a little first.

Don’t worry about the auto siphon issues. You may not taste it on the tongue but the wine still has plenty of co2 in there. It won’t always bubble thru the airlock- but it’s there. If there’s ever a time where being rough with the wine is ok it’s the timeframe directly after fermentation.

I’m always splash racking those first few racks.

Thanks for the tips and words of encouragement!

 

[purpletongue]

Okay, I guess I owe you a donut then! Or is it that I owe you a dollar? -- I can never remember which way that is supposed to go...

Glad to hear it seems to be going well. I agree with @Ajmassa that you don't have much to fear at this point.

Mmm, I'd take the donut myself. Boston cream!
Thanks, it's really been a fun experience. I like gardening too so the patience and nurturing required is something I enjoy.