C02

Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum

Help Support Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Here in Calgary where we are 3000 feet above sea level it takes a lot more effort to degass wine. Those of you down at sea level, or below like Luc, are luck in that time or just a little stirring will do it. Not up here! I have to stir so much that I am afraid that I am oxygenating the wine which made me very happy to switch to a wine saver style pump.

Wouldn't it be the opposite? I mean, lots of use a vacuum pump to reduce the ambient pressure around the wine to allow the gas to naturally come out of solution. At 3000ft the air pressure is actually LESS than what it is at sea level, making it easier for you to degas.

If you were to take a rocket ship up past 3000ft to the vacuum of space, the wine might even degas itself!
 
Hehehehe.....

Try degassing a kit at almost 7000 ft............ :<

beano.jpg
 
Hmmmm.....

Good thought but I think its actually working in an opposing fashion here.

Higher altitude, means less atmospheric pressure, i.e., less atmospheric force acting on the gas trapped inside the wine (and everything else for that matter) so less force = less pressure exerted on the wine in effect by nature. The CO2 has less of a reason to leave the vessel at altitude than it does at sea level.

Hope that makes some sense.....

Wouldn't it be the opposite? I mean, lots of use a vacuum pump to reduce the ambient pressure around the wine to allow the gas to naturally come out of solution. At 3000ft the air pressure is actually LESS than what it is at sea level, making it easier for you to degas.

If you were to take a rocket ship up past 3000ft to the vacuum of space, the wine might even degas itself!
 
I wondered about this too but it turns out not to be true.

The article 'Follow-up on Vacuum Degassing' on the winemaker magazine has some info about this very topic.

From the article:


I commented to Tim Vandergrift (the author of the article) on another forum that I thought it interesting he brought up that point, and he provided additional information:



So I think that should settle the argument about vacuum degassing removing anything perceptible (except for C02) from wine.

Now That's a good article. Thanks.

Maybe a guy (or gal) could incorporate a rougher surface, like a rolled up, twisted wire onto the end of the drill stirrer to get more nucleaity (if "nucleaity" that is really a word :?).

That'll get my thinker goin' !!!
 
IMHO, the vacuum of space or even high altitude is the same vacuum created by a vacuum pump. At high altitudes there is less pressure, in a vacuum there is no pressure. At high altitudes the gas, whatever kind it is, should jump right out of the wine. :b
 
I used a Mix Stir and a Vacuvin for the first couple of kits and moved on quickly to a vacuum pump after that. You need to make a bunch of wine to make the pump cost effective. The Vacuvin does work and its cheap!


What method do you use up there?
 
Mike said:"The CO2 has less of a reason to leave the vessel at altitude than it does at sea level."

Interesting...so you are saying that the pressure of the wine molecules and their weight alone wont be enough? It would *seem* that the pressure of the liquid being bonded together and i forget my physics class teaching , but there is a term for the reason liquids stick together....anyways...i would have thought that this pressure would be more than the reduced air pressure in a higher altitude
 
Well, I tried very hard to find some science to prove "my theory" but I simply can't.

That said, I also have zero experience at degassing at sea level, only at high altitude which I can guarantee is hard but in reality it is quite probably harder to degas at sea level than at altitude.......

So lets look at some of the science behind the things we are interested in!

Solubility of Gases vs. Temperature:

The variation of solubility for a gas with temperature can be determined by examining the 1st graphic below.

As the temperature increases, the solubility of a gas decreases as shown by the downward trend in the graph .

More gas is present in a solution with a lower (colder) temperature compared to a solution with a higher (warmer) temperature.

The reason for this gas solubility relationship with temperature is very similar to the reason that vapor pressure increases with temperature. Increased temperature causes an increase in kinetic energy. The higher kinetic energy causes more motion in molecules which break intermolecular bonds and escape from solution.

This gas solubility relationship can be remembered if you think about what happens to a "soda pop" as it stands around for awhile at room temperature. The taste is very "flat" since more of the "tangy" carbon dioxide bubbles have escaped. Boiled water also tastes "flat" because all of the oxygen gas has been removed by heating.

So this is why we always tell people to warm that carboy up to 75 degrees 1st before attempting to degas!

Moving on to what we really want to look at in this thread!

Gas Pressure and Solubility:

Liquids and solids exhibit practically no change of solubility with changes in pressure.

Gases however, increase in solubility with an increase in pressure.

Henry's Law states that: The solubility of a gas in a liquid is directly proportional to the pressure of that gas above the surface of the solution.

Remember atmospheric pressure is Higher at sea level than at high altitude. You have less pressure at high altitude because there is less atmosphere weighing down on you in other words.

Now we are getting to the nitty gritty!

If the pressure is increased (think sea level), the gas molecules are "forced" more into the solution since this will best relieve the pressure that has been applied. The number of gas molecules is decreased. The number of gas molecules dissolved in solution has increased as shown in the 2nd graphic below.

Carbonated beverages provide the best example of this phenomena. All carbonated beverages are bottled under pressure to increase the carbon dioxide dissolved in solution. When the bottle is opened, the pressure above the solution decreases. As a result, the solution effervesces and some of the carbon dioxide bubbles off.

Deep sea divers may experience a condition called the "bends" if they do not readjust slowly to the lower pressure at the surface. As a result of breathing compressed air and being subjected to high pressures caused by water depth, the amount of nitrogen dissolved in blood and other tissues increases. If the diver returns to the surface too rapidly, the nitrogen forms bubbles in the blood as it becomes less soluble due to a decrease in pressure. The nitrogen bubbles can cause great pain and possibly death.

To alleviate this problem somewhat, artificial breathing mixtures of oxygen and helium are used. Helium is only one-fifth as soluble in blood as nitrogen. As a result, there is less dissolved gas to form bubbles.

Another application of Henry's Law is in the administration of anesthetic gases. If the partial pressure of the anesthetic gas is increased, the anesthetic solubility increases in the blood.

The amount of dissolved oxygen in a mountain lake at 10,000 ft and 50 degrees F is less than the amount of dissolved oxygen in a lake near sea level at 50 degrees F because of less atmospheric pressure at high altitude.

A Coke at room temperature will have more carbon dioxide in the head space above the liquid than an ice cold bottle because a warm coke can hold less of the gas in solution.

So if your still reading this you must be really bored or very interested in the science behind degassing of wine at different temperatures and pressures!

Anyone's head hurt yet? :d

174solublegas.jpg

17gaspressure.jpg
 
Mike, thanks..and i will re-read tonite when i have more time...that last illustration said a lot...gas is more ****soluble**** at higher pressure....

conversely meaning that it would be less soluble ( or bound to liquids) at less pressure
 
Mike,

You have waaaaaaaaaay too much time on your hands!

That being said, it is very interesting.

Mike
 
Glad we got that sorted out, otherwise I would have had to sell my vacuum pump and buy a compressor to degas my next batch of wine :). When in doubt, ask the internet!
 

Latest posts

Back
Top