Open bottle, a day later

[Rice_Guy]

1. skin tannins react more quickly with oxygen than seed tannins.
2. skin tannin content of wine is higher in uncrushed grape wines than crushed grape wines because they ferment more slowly due to lower pulp surface area.

I haven’t seen anything which would suggest that skin and seed tannin have different reaction rates. The published chemistry is that skin tannins are larger molecules than seed tannins. As tannins age they form larger and larger complexes and eventually get large enough that they are insoluble, fall out of solution and then are tasteless.
2) molecules tend toward equilibrium with their surroundings. If I have uncrushed grapes the concentration in the berry pulp will already be in equilibrium with that in/ on the seed. A guess is that the flavorful polyphenols are part of the skin on the seeds. (with rice, corn and wheat the interesting polyphenols are skin related ~ endosperm is primarily starch with 10 to 15% protein, fat, mineral)

4. oxidizable aroma molecules are semi-protected by skin tannins which compete for oxygen, so the open bottles smell better longer.

Aroma can be both a positive and a negative. Reductive flavors / reduced sulfur can be detected down to 0.2 parts per trillion/ H2S is detectable down to 1 ppt. In comparison fruity aroma compounds are detected at parts per million. (ie one could smell a drop in a basketball gym vs one drop contained in a bathroom)
Once fruity notes are lost we can’t get them back. Reduced sulfur is powerful enough that it will overpower our ability to sense fruityness, ie we think it isn’t there. If the reduced sulfur (reductive flavor) is exposed to oxygen it oxidizes to a less volatile form which isn’t masking the fruity notes, so we think it appeared again. The winemaker is manipulating a reduced chemistry soup, he will have choices as how much and which antioxidants are used, how many mg of oxygen the cap is rated for, do they nitrogen flush at filling, do they nitrogen flush the pipes from tank to filler, etc. Minimizing oxygen is advantageous if producing country wines with low tannin (antioxidant). Micro oxidation is useful if one has a highly tannic wine, basically a lot of the polyphenols don’t taste good. Oxidation can be used to convert the tannin into a flavorless form. Excessive oxidation pushes the soup such that more energetic reactions as creating acetaldehyde happen simultaneously with lower ReDox potential / easier reactions as oxidizing tannin or aromatics.
Temperature as refrigerator 2C versus cellar 10C vs room 18C won’t push oxidation a lot. It will affect how volatile fruity aromatics are. In warehouse storage the key is daily variation. Each cycle down draws oxygen through the cork, vs warming expands the trapped gas exchanging consumed molecules.

Oxidation chemistry happens, ,,, ex peroxides form as light strikes a molecule. A squeaky clean bottle without micro oxygenation via a natural cork will reduce sulfur changing the state to create reductive sulfur flavors. . . . . We are artists, only the university folks have the tools to measure what happened in this year vs last year’s lot. A lot of the chemistry we can taste.

 

[winemanden]

Don't over worry about wine breathing. Keep breathing yourself. That way you can taste and drink more wines!

 

[Hazelemere]

Here is my best guess on why hand-destemmed uncrushed reds from grapes last longer in the bottle after being opened:

1. skin tannins react more quickly with oxygen than seed tannins.

2. skin tannin content of wine is higher in uncrushed grape wines than crushed grape wines because they ferment more slowly due to lower pulp surface area.

3. "lasting" implies longevity of smell which you get from hand-destemmed uncrushed due to lower fermentation temperature and lower release of aroma "volatiles" since the yeast works more slowly on a low surface area must.

4. oxidizable aroma molecules are semi-protected by skin tannins which compete for oxygen, so the open bottles smell better longer.

We were invited to my daughter and son in law's to celebrate our 48th wedding anniversary at their home with a gourmet meal of wild young moose roast loin with a gravy made with old plum sherry reduced to almost nothing. It smelled like caramel and nuts. We had it with roast vegetables and gravy mashed potatoes plus apple pie with Haagen Dasz ice cream. What a meal! It was perfect. My son in law John opened up a 2012 Washington Red that we made together from Dineen Cabernet Sauvignon (40%) and Syrah from Sheridan and Meek Vineyards (30% each), all hand destemmed and uncrushed. It had no signs of oxidation at all, with lots of flavour and was totally balanced with a long finish. The grapes were fermented hand destemmed and uncrushed for 17 to 23 days. So much for skin tannins!

 

[Venatorscribe]

In reference to reducing the oxidative effect I make a small addition of ascorbic acid along with k-meta prior to bottling.

 

[Paulie vino]

I've been thinking about this for a while now. All the wines I make have a similar taste when opened, not a good taste. Kind of hot, maybe sulfur smelling. Recently I left a glass out overnight and it was much better the next day. Now I'm experimenting with how much time it takes to hit the sweet spot before it goes from good to oxidized. I keep the close the open bottles with a vaccu vin and store on the counter

I've heard some Bordeaux bottles are better when decanted one day prior to drinking to

 

[Hazelemere]

I've been thinking about this for a while now. All the wines I make have a similar taste when opened, not a good taste. Kind of hot, maybe sulfur smelling. Recently I left a glass out overnight and it was much better the next day. Now I'm experimenting with how much time it takes to hit the sweet spot before it goes from good to oxidized. I keep the close the open bottles with a vaccu vin and store on the counter

I've heard some Bordeaux bottles are better when decanted one day prior to drinking to

What are you fermenting? Kits, fresh or frozen fruit? If you give us enough information the geeks on this website will help you improve all of your future wines. There is a lot of talent on this website.

PS. Most of the winemakers on this website are wine/food geeks so you are in good hands. Talk to us and we will help you.

 

[Paulie vino]

Grapes from California. All ages in glass, usually with an oak stick for part of the time. Last year's wine bulk aged for about a year and was bottled in october. That's the bottle I referred to in my post. This is my second wine from grapes and after it decants for a day it tastes like wine should. When first poured it's hot, like I mentioned about. I have a few bottles that were from a small 3 liter oak barrel for a week I'm curious how those compare to the glass aged version.

 

[Rice_Guy]

. Last year's wine bulk aged for about a year and was bottled in october. That's the bottle I referred to in my post. This is my second wine from grapes and after it decants for a day it tastes like wine should. When first poured it's hot

Hot?
* ? Are you tasting astringent tannins, if this is the case it will go away with time. All young red tannic wines have sharp notes. Your comment about flavor change in a day suggests that addition of oxygen fixes the flavor which is consistent but faster than I expect with tannin chemistry. A test; if you mix some no fat milk in does the flavor immediately go away. ,, (try 1ml in a glass). A protein will react with a tannin creating an insoluble gunk. Second test; does sugar make the flavor acceptable? One can balance astringent tannin flavor with sugar. Does a pinch of acid in a glass of wine make it worse? Tannin magnifies acid flavor notes.
Have you trained on flavors by tasting tannin in water or wine? Chestnut tannin is a nice astringent.
* Paulie you mentioned oxidized flavor in your 2022 post about making wine from grapes. Acetaldehyde at high levels can give sharp notes, a burn at the back of the throat when swallowing. This should not go away when left exposed for a day. Oxidation is a common fault in contest wines so I ask what kind of hot?
* your posts about 2023 and 2022 suggests that you are a critical taster. ? Volatile acidity can give sharp notes. If heated as 50 ml microwaved 30 seconds you should smell a pronounced salad dressing note. Again this should not go away when exposed for a day.
* ? Hot is sometimes used for describing high alcohol flavor. Alcohol notes would go away with air exposure. Your logs on making the past two years don’t suggest high alcohol though.

I would also suggest try to find a second opinion on the flavor. For where I am I can take a sample to a vinters club and ask for opinions; I can take a sample to the shop which sells kits and airlocks and yeast; you could ask on WMT for someone local who could taste; you could mail a 100ml PET liquor bottle to me for testing.
Hot is an interesting description.

 

[Rickster57]

I've been thinking about this for a while now. All the wines I make have a similar taste when opened, not a good taste. Kind of hot, maybe sulfur smelling. Recently I left a glass out overnight and it was much better the next day. Now I'm experimenting with how much time it takes to hit the sweet spot before it goes from good to oxidized. I keep the close the open bottles with a vaccu vin and store on the counter

I've heard some Bordeaux bottles are better when decanted one day prior to drinking to

Same here with my 6 gallon batch of watermelon wine. We opened a bottle to sample and thought it had a semi-unpleasant smell. I was even rethinking giving bottles for Christmas presents. Placed the bottle in the refrigerator and 24 hours later we got it out for another sample. The wine was much improved. So much so that I am thinking about uncorking the entire batch, chilling overnight and reinstall the corks but I fear the wine may oxidize.

 

[Paulie vino]

I'm not going good at describing what I taste. Maybe hot isn't the best word, it's hard to describe. When smelling the newly opened wine in a glass it has a small burn in the nose, almost like what kmeta smells like but not as pungent. It's hard to smell any of the nose over that smell. After a day the nose is much more apparent, things like strawberries and cherries come though which makes sense because it's 2/3 barbera and 1/3 zinfandel. There's not much tannin, maybe more initially when first poured but after a day of sitting out the wine drinks pretty easily, no grippiness in the cheeks really. When first opened it's not a pleasant wine to drink, but but when left to sit for a day it's a decent table wine, but kind of thin. I blame the short maceration period that and maybe the quality of the grapes

 

[Rice_Guy]

Maybe hot isn't the best word, it's hard to describe. When smelling the newly opened wine in a glass it has a small burn in the nose, almost like what kmeta smells like but not as pungent. It's hard to smell any of the nose over that smell. After a day the nose is much more apparent, things like strawberries and cherries come though which makes sense because it's 2/3 barbera and 1/3 zinfandel.

I would suggest you look at “sulfur like odor” reference Va Tech; Zoklein, Sulfur like odor ref. the AWRI, and reductive flavor. With Avanti yeast you aren’t supposed to have H2S but the rest of the picture fits, ,,, Fruity notes are there but overpowered, short maceration/ unknown YAN level, fairly fast fermentation.

Reductive is a family of flavor compounds. In the Prairie vinters club the flavor was described as “fried chicken”, in Wisconsin Vinters it is “skunk”. ,,, Secondary sources for H2S since you used Avante could be spraying lots of sulfur in the vineyard as with organic grape production, or a high sulfur treatment in a barrel.
I wonder if there is anything volatile that was used to sanitize your rebuilt press? I don’t have enough experience to know of any wild infections that produce “burn in the nose”. Infection usually goes along with terms like funk (Bret infection).

 

[Hazelemere]

I would suggest you look at “sulfur like odor” reference Va Tech; Zoklein, Sulfur like odor ref. the AWRI, and reductive flavor. With Avanti yeast you aren’t supposed to have H2S but the rest of the picture fits, ,,, Fruity notes are there but overpowered, short maceration/ unknown YAN level, fairly fast fermentation.

Reductive is a family of flavor compounds. In the Prairie vinters club the flavor was described as “fried chicken”, in Wisconsin Vinters it is “skunk”. ,,, Secondary sources for H2S since you used Avante could be spraying lots of sulfur in the vineyard as with organic grape production, or a high sulfur treatment in a barrel.
I wonder if there is anything volatile that was used to sanitize your rebuilt press? I don’t have enough experience to know of any wild infections that produce “burn in the nose”. Infection usually goes along with terms like funk (Bret infection).

does it smell anything like burnt rubber?

 

[David Violante]

@Paulie vino I’ve had a similar experience previously with a merlot batch and when I whizzed a bottle in a blender it seemed perfect. Partly I believe the wine needed to breathe a little, and partly I needed to jumpstart the removal of CO2 earlier. Some runs seem to hold on for some reason. Vacuum racking can help with this as will time.

It also seems like you could be at an intersection with something else. There’s no reason a few things couldn’t be happening at the same time. Do you have notes about your SO2 additions? I absolutely over did one of my meads with SO2 and had the same experience as you’re describing. It’s also hard to describe exactly, but when I left a bottle open or shook it vigorously the smell and sharp taste dissipated.

Dave (@Rice_Guy) mentioned acetaldehyde and I’ve had that occur in a blend of mine. It tastes a little sharp and hot in the back of the throat and has a distinctive reductive smell like sherry and leaves a bit of a nutty taste. SO2 is supposed to help in that situation so I’m not sure you can have both but I suppose it’s possible. I’m not sure of another fix for acetaldehyde. I don’t know if blending would help or not.

 

[QuiQuog]

2) molecules tend toward equilibrium with their surroundings.

I like this. Friends and relatives are always asking why I'm not drinking/bringing the wine I just made. I've never really been able to explain to people why wines need to age, they just do. This simple statement, along with all the other comments about tannins changing form, gives a good base to help explain that molecules in the wine are constantly changing. We just need to wait for the window where all of these changes create something we enjoy, and before they continue into something that we don't

 

[Paulie vino]

Thanks for the advice. I'm still tasting and experimenting. I opened up some other vintages since they also had similar tastes and smells when opened. I tasted those right after pouring and they had similar tastes and smells (although my 2022 has some h2s issues during fermentation, not sure if time will fix that batch but I'm waiting I out). I'll see how those bottles compare to my 2023. The 2023 batch was pleasant to drink after sitting out for a day or two. So what does that mean? It can't be that the wine was oxidized because sitting out would make it worse? I added more kmeta to this wine because I thought it was oxidizing, maybe I I added it when it wasn't needed and now it's over sulfited? This may explain the hot smell, maybe a little burning in the nose. Time in the glass allows the sulfur to blow off or react with air to transform it back into a pleasant wine? Am I on the right track here?

Also, I don't believe it's anything with my press as some of the juice buckets I made had the same taste. The only thing I did to the press was replace some staves and replace old bolts with stainless steel bolts. Didn't touch the hoops or the pan.

 

[David Violante]

I added more kmeta to this wine because I thought it was oxidizing, maybe I I added it when it wasn't needed and now it's over sulfited?

This could be it. Letting it sit longer will help. Can you check the SO2 levels? Also, what is the pH, this will guide what SO2 levels you will need. Finding this out can help discern or rule out the SO2 possibility of the smell and taste.

 

[winemaker81]

I added more kmeta to this wine because I thought it was oxidizing, maybe I I added it when it wasn't needed and now it's over sulfited?

Excess K-meta smells like a burnt match.

 

[Paulie vino]

It's not really burnt match smell. I opened a juice bucket merlot from 3 years ago and it had a similar taste and smell which improved after 2 days in a glass. Not sure it's the sulfites since that one had a normal 1/4 tsp every 3 months additions.

The pH of my 2033 wine was 3.51 pre fermentation, I didn't take any readings after.
I don't have any way to measure so2