WineXpert Chardonnay to Champagne

[Wade E]

This sounds good but I dont know if I want to get into all that riddling and degorging stuff. Sounds like alot of work and time.

 

[NorthernWinos]

This sounds good but I dont know if I want to get into all that riddling and degorging stuff. Sounds like alot of work and time.

Riddling and dégorgement isn't all that bad...if you want to drink one bottle at a time you can do that too...just store them upside down so the lees end up in the bottle stopper...and enjoy....we do that till we have time to do a bunch of bottles....
Once you dégorge them, top up and recap them...then you have to wait awhile again....
So, make up a few bottles and enjoy them one at a time just to get the enjoyment of Sparkling Wine you made yourself.

 

[MrFruitwines]

Welcome MrFruitwines...interesting name...hope you will be sharing some of your secrets with us.

Thanks and sure, except I don't have any secrets.

I love this book.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0156970953/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

On page 208 it has a section on making champagne by 4 different methods. (Methode Champenoise, Bulk or Charmat process, Andovin method and the Dispatch method.)

I used the last one.

I was just thinking and if I had to do it again, I make the wine (curvee) and rack it into a 19L SS keg. I'd add sugar and yeast and allow it to carbonate to a pressure of 45-50PSI. Those kegs are rated to 120 PSI, btw.To get the CO2 to absorb, you have to have the kegs cold. I put mine out in the snowbank at -10 ! And you have to shake them too.

Anyway, once you have the CO2 absorbed in the cold champagne, you could filter out the yeast with a domestic water filter and bottle it with a counter pressure bottler. For he CO2 source for preloading the bottles, I would use a CO2 tank (with regulator) from a paintball gun.

Check the homebrewer sites for a counterpressure bottler design. There are lots around.

I've heard that the CO2 generated from secondary fermentation is better than the CO2 from tanks. I don't know if that is true or not.

Anyway, just my $0.02.

 

[MrFruitwines]

Riddling and dégorgement will get rid of the lees....they settle in the plastic stopper and pop out once you freeze the top of the bottle....slick as can be..

I am not so sure about that. The bottle will have to be tipped upright to be opened and at that point the yeast could drop down and get distributed in the sparkling wine.

I know when beer is carbonated by secondary fermentation that one has to be very careful when pouring the beer not to disturb the yeast at the bottom. Very few people like the taste of it. Some people have resorted to carbonating via secondary fermentation and then filtering and bottling cold to preserve the CO2. By cold, I mean with freezing bottles.

Just saying, just thinking out loud.

 

[NorthernWinos]

I am not so sure about that. The bottle will have to be tipped upright to be opened and at that point the yeast could drop down and get distributed in the sparkling wine.
By cold, I mean with freezing bottles.

Just saying, just thinking out loud.

We put the bottles [top still down] in the freezer for about 1 1/2 hours [depends on your freezer] By then the neck of the bottle will have ice in it.... when you pop the cork a plug of ice comes out froze onto the stopper and all the lees are right there in the stopper.You have the bottle in a semi-upright position at this time...you don't loose much wine at all.

I did a tutorial on Sparkling Wine...It's our favorite.....it was fun to do and hope it has helped some not be afraid to try making Sparkling Wines...


http://www.finevinewines.com//Wiz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1206

 

[MrFruitwines]

I'm not aware of the exact freezing temp of wines, but I had my keg in the snowbank at -10C and I didn't notice any frozen wine. How cold is a freezer ?

 

[NorthernWinos]

I'm not aware of the exact freezing temp of wines, but I had my keg in the snowbank at -10C and I didn't notice any frozen wine. How cold is a freezer ?

We put a plastic crate of 9 inverted bottles of Sparkling Wine outside the other day, it was 12*F [-11*C] We had hopes of dégorging the wines, topping off and enjoying the 'left-overs'...those bottles were outside for 6 hours and didn't have a sign of ice crystals in the bottle necks...
So...the next day we put them in the chest type freezer...-5*F [-20*C] they had ice crystals in the necks in 1 1/2 hours.
I see that the big Champagne houses use some liquid nitrogen to flash freeze the necks of the bottles...that would be great....the neighbor has A-I [Artificial Insemination] tanks full of the stuff out in his barn....hummm, could slip over there and dégorge some wines....
I guess wine has a pretty good tolerance to freezing....Of course it depends on the alcohol content...
Masta probably has the figures for freezing temps/alcohol...Edited by: Northern Winos

 

[Angell Wine]

http://www.honeycreek.us/conversion.htm



it's tell's on the content part.

 

[redderthebetter]

I've pondered carbonation with C02 equipment. I don't own any. But if I did I would make a Island Mist, like the rasberry shiraz I did last summer, and carbonate that. I found the IM tasted sort of flat and in need of the tickle that you get with a wine cooler. I have read of the different methods to create sparkling wine. The traditional, in bottle fermentation, mechanical(C02) carbonation, and one interesting method of in bottle carbonation was to use dialisys tubing to corral the yeast.I have great expectations for this Chardonnay I added the sparkling touch to.

 

[PeterZ]

Well, it won't make a true champagne carbonation, but if you want just a little tingle of carbonation (kind of like a wine that hasn't been degassed with a bit more fizz) try this:

First, get your bottles as cold as you can - fridge or freezer. Then rack your fully clarified wine into a primary with a bung. Add a bunch of dry ice. Keep adding dry ice until it hardly fizzes but is not frozen (about 30F). Bottle through the lower bung into the ice cold bottles and cork immediately.

 

[redderthebetter]

That's an interesting concept PeterZ. I'm going to point out for safety's sake that one should bottle with Champagne bottles and wired toppers, or capped beer bottles. You say "Keep adding dry ice until it hardly fizzes but is not frozen (about 30F)." Is that the point where the liquid is getting cold enough to hold dissolved C02?


I read a post on a brewing board where someone asked about the possibility of adding dry ice directly into a Corny Keg with the liquid, then closing to force carbonation. It was pointed out that that could cause unknown amounts of pressure and a possible dangerous if not messy situation.


Anyway I will tuck that little bit of info away for my next Island Mist. It doesn't need full blown fizz, just enough to add a crispness that the flat wine lacks.

 

[PeterZ]

I agree with the champaign bottles or beer bottles. Commercial soft drink makers (and probably many breweries) use liquid CO2 for carbonation. CO2 is only liquid at pressures of >120 psig. That fact also indicates the highest pressure that would be reached, as if too much CO2 were put in the bottle, some would remain liquid when the pressure got high enough.

The reason for the cold is that, yes redder, cold liquids hold more dissolved gasses than hot liquids. That's why, if you leave a Coke in the car on a hot day and then open it you have quite a mess.

If you want to get a feel for what you would get based on my earlier post, get some dry ice and just put it in water a little at a time until the water starts to freeze around the dry ice. Drink some of the cold water and you will taste the fizz (you just made club soda). BE CAREFUL!! Dry ice is about -75F and will burn you. Wear gloves.

 

[Wade E]

So then degassing wine at a colder temp would be alot easier?

 

[Coaster]

I think degassing a warmer wine would be easier.

 

[bmorosco]

I have had better luck with cold degassing...

 

[masta]

The warmer the wine the less gas there is to remove by forceand as with folks who live at high altitudes who's wine will also hold less CO2 since the atmospheric pressure is lower.

 

[peterCooper]

That would explain why I never have trouble with gas.

 

[PeterZ]

There are two types of gas in a liquid - dissolved and, for want of a better word, not dissolved. The colder the liquid, the more dissolved gas (at equilibrium with the air). In practice, the difference between the dissolved gas level between 60F and 80F is pretty small.

Dissolved gas is undectectable on the palate. You do not detect any fizz. It is gas coming out of the dissolved state that gives the fizz. What gives my earlier examples with the dry ice a fizz is that they are NOT in equilibrium with the air. They are supersaturated with gas. Let them sit awhile and they will go flat - just like any carbonated beverage.

The point is that equilibrium does not occur instantaneoulsy. If you can get the wine bottled before equilibrium is reached, then you change the equation. The pressure on the liquid is not 14.7 psia, it is higher, so equilibrium = more dissolved gas. When you open the bottle, the gas is supersaturated, hence the fizz.

 

[PolishWineP]

Wow! Things I never thought that I'd find interesting that end up with my full attention! I'm going to have to read this stuff several times for my non-scientific brain

to get around it all, but this is starting to sound fun!

Now comes the part I've been trying to figure out for several years. Where does one purchase dry ice?

 

[NorthernWinos]

You can buy dry ice at locker plants....they sell it to fishermen for transporting fish etc.You can also use it if you ship meat...but the Airline's like to know if it is in with your meat....think they have to label it as containing dry ice.
Watch for signs at sporting good stores and locker plants....
I want some liquid nitrogen to freeze the Sparkling Wine bottle necks for dégorging...going to raid the neighbors Artificial Insemination tanks one day and give it a try....Edited by: Northern Winos