Cheap effective degassing vacuum?

[dangerdave]

Kickbacks?! Steve, where's my daggone kickbacks!!!

I'm a firefighter. We are far better at tearing things down than building them up. For me, $200 is well worth the cost, not having the knowledge or time to fabricate a vacuum system of my own. My skills lie elsewhere.

<not a paid endorcement>

 

[vacuumpumpman]

Dave
I am a very fortunate person to have alot of support on this website !
I do not like talking how great my product is - after years of research and development. I enjoy when other winemakers are able to express their views -

So Thanks to everyone who have commented or posted !!

I had no idea when you gave the first review - that it will still be going strong today - Thanks again

 

[upsidedown]

Has anyone tried stainless steel screws (cleaned and sanitized) in their wine during vacuum degassing to increase the release of CO2

 

[olusteebus]

Has anyone tried stainless steel screws (cleaned and sanitized) in their wine during vacuum degassing to increase the release of CO2

Does stainless do that?

 

[WI_Wino]

I don't believe it is because the screws are stainless but rather that the screws would assist in giving the CO2 more nucleation points. You would have to shake the carboy I think while degassing in order to see any difference.

 

[vacuumpumpman]

I have used marbles while under a vacuum and it worked good. But the best has been the aid of the splash racking cane

 

[Geronimo]

Just pull 16-20 inches of vacuum and let it sit. You'll get all the CO2 out. You might need to do it a few times. Everything in wine making is better with patience.

 

[sour_grapes]

Has anyone tried stainless steel screws (cleaned and sanitized) in their wine during vacuum degassing to increase the release of CO2

What I have come to do is to fill a carboy only half full, pull a vacuum on it, and then shake it violently. This gets the CO2 out pretty quickly.

However, here are some salient points (no pun intended) from an earlier thread that discussed some of this: http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f5/degassing-all-one-42560/index2.html

However, the bubbles need to nucleate, that is, they need to reach a certain size, which favors their continued growth, rather than their dissolution back into the gas. The size where continued growth is favored over dissolution depends on both how much CO2 is dissolved, and what the isostatic pressure is. Bubble formation is greatly aided if there is a "nucleation point," that is, some asperity where the nascent bubble can get started.

As was mentioned earlier, putting a brush in your wine will give your the nucleation point. Substitute a 3 inch galvanized nail and you will have the same thing and its much easier to clean. With a white wine, you can see the bubbles forming around the nail and streaming to the top. I'm still experimenting with the nail but so far the results are impressive.

I've been trying to think of a way to use glass with sharp edges, i.e., broken glass. I wanted to use glass to be sure it would be inert and impart no flavors. However, I cannot think of a reliable way to do this! A few weeks ago, we had people freaking out at the thought of drinking wine from a cracked carboy; imagine if we started using glass chips as degassing aids!

I don't know why, but the thought of putting a bottle brush in there bothers me. Your idea is interesting. Do you get any flavors from the zinc? (pH of wine is pretty acidic.) Hmmm, maybe something made out of stainless steel wire.....

I sometimes add a sanitized chopstick to help with nucleation

Believe it or not, I don't actually understand the physics behind what causes bubbles to nucleate at asperities. But that is certainly the observation, in fact, you can buy Champagne glasses that are laser-etched to produce a certain pattern of bubbles.

Okay, I just went googling, and one recurring school of thought is that bubbles nucleate where there are small pockets of gas trapped between, say, some cellulose fibers. CO2 diffuses into this air pocket, the pocket expands, and then the bubble breaks off. I can see why this might work. The presence of the pre-existing air pocket overcomes the nucleation barrier I alluded to above. There is no need to nucleate a new bubble -- the existing one gives rise to a new one, repeatedly.

Soooo, maybe asperities are not what is required. Perhaps the important thing is air pockets. Makes the chopstick idea sound promising!

 

[Geronimo]

Whenever the surface tension is lower (or imparts a shear component), heterogeneous nucleation will tend to occur. Just like electricity, the bubbles form in the area of least resistance.

Having nucleation sites doesn't make the dissolution of CO2 happen, it's just more controlled. It would happen anyway. Even if you can't see it happening, CO2 will eventually "degas" itself to the nominal pH of the host liquid. Highly acidic beverages like Coca Cola (pH 2.5-2.8) will tend to hold their CO2 in the form of carbonic acid much longer than beer (pH 5.2-5.5).

Wine, having a pH of 3.0-3.3, needs some help to fully degas. Pulling a vacuum causes the carbonic acid to boil off.

 

[upsidedown]

Does stainless do that?

I was just talking stainless because it is easily obtainable. like the other posts suggest it was mainly about increase in nucleation

 

[upsidedown]

Ok well I did a bit of googling around man I can't believe I used the word googling. And I found this short youtube video. Nice set up [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CZUkY8T4CY"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CZUkY8T4CY[/ame]

 

[sour_grapes]

Hey! They used a sintered stainless steel disk to provide the nucleation sites. The good news is that you can get a sintered stainless steel diffusion stone at your LHBS, because they are used in aeration of beer. Hmmm.... May have to try that.

 

[Geronimo]

You want to be careful when degassing with vacuum, because you'll start to boil off alcohol at 20 inches of mercury. If your bubbles look small and tightly formed, like foamy, then it's CO2. As soon as you see larger bubbles that look a lot like boiling water, that's not CO2 any more.

 

[DoctorCAD]

Takes about 27 or 28 inches of Hg to get anywhere close to a room tempersture boil of ethanol. Not too many home vaccum pumps can pull that

 

[bkisel]

You want to be careful when degassing with vacuum, because you'll start to boil off alcohol at 20 inches of mercury. If your bubbles look small and tightly formed, like foamy, then it's CO2. As soon as you see larger bubbles that look a lot like boiling water, that's not CO2 any more.

So the larger bubbles are gaseous alcohol? I see those after awhile when using my VacuVin wine pump to degas.

Thanx...

 

[Geronimo]

So the larger bubbles are gaseous alcohol? I see those after awhile when using my VacuVin wine pump to degas.

Thanx...

That's what I do, and I haven't experienced any residual CO2 in anything. In fact I just pull 16 inches and when the foamy bubbling is minimal I quit.

I use a manual brake line bleeder for the vacuum, so I pull the vacuum and let it sit for an hour, come back and do it again... etc. Usually about the 3rd or 4th time I'm done. If you use an electric pump it shouldn't take more than an hour to degas.

Think about it; if you open a can of pop, how long does it take to go flat?

The notion that wine can hold on to CO2 until you bottle and then release it is pretty hard to buy into. If you make any effort, you'll get down to where you need to be. It's people that bottle too early or without making any effort to degas that can get in trouble.

 

[sour_grapes]

So the larger bubbles are gaseous alcohol? I see those after awhile when using my VacuVin wine pump to degas.

Thanx...

I have no reason to think they are alcohol. As DrCAD points out, the vapor pressure of alcohol is pretty low. It would reach its boiling point at about 27 or 28 inHg. Not that things cannot evaporate below their boiling point, but you won't see them nucleate bubbles.

Now, let's think about bubble size. Remember, a bubble that contains a given amount of gas will vary in physical size with pressure. That is, if you could somehow suspend a bubble, then lower the pressure of the vessel, the bubble would grow larger. (Boyle's Law, basically, PV = NRT.)

I don't know this, but I suspect the larger bubbles are just a result of attaining a lower pressure while nucleating CO2 bubbles containing the same amount of gas.

 

[cooldood]

Well figuring in my normal wage versus time it would take ME to build something like the AIO. I can say it's cheaper for me to buy it. Besides Steve is a great guy to deal with and customer service is a big factor in any purchase.

You get paid to sit on the couch?

jk

I understand what you are saying. IMHO there is no one size fits all.
Somethings for homebrewing I buy things because it is not worth the effort and I can afford it.

Other items I have fun building them and I do it not to save money but for the enjoyment of it.
So at the end of the day this should be about making wine and employing the tactics that suit your needs not others.

 

[bkisel]

I have no reason to think they are alcohol. As DrCAD points out, the vapor pressure of alcohol is pretty low. It would reach its boiling point at about 27 or 28 inHg. Not that things cannot evaporate below their boiling point, but you won't see them nucleate bubbles.

Now, let's think about bubble size. Remember, a bubble that contains a given amount of gas will vary in physical size with pressure. That is, if you could somehow suspend a bubble, then lower the pressure of the vessel, the bubble would grow larger. (Boyle's Law, basically, PV = NRT.)

I don't know this, but I suspect the larger bubbles are just a result of attaining a lower pressure while nucleating CO2 bubbles containing the same amount of gas.

So you're of the opinion that when you're vacuum degassing keep at it even though you're pulling up the bigger bubbles not anymore small ones?

Thanx...

 

[Geronimo]

I think we're missing the point. A can of soda or beer, once opened, degases itself completely without heat or vacuum. To degas your wine, you don't need to pull a high vacuum for a long time. Once you see the foamy little bubbles dissipate, the CO2 is gone.

In fact, if you aren't in a hurry, the wine will naturally degas itself just fine as it bulk ages.