Chileans, Finally!

[Boatboy24]

@Johnd and @Boatboy24 - you guys are gonna have to do me a solid this spring then. I know you both own Vinmetricas correct? So at crush (or thaw) let’s put those to use and see what we are actually working with! If you do, please share the results.
Harford and my supplier in nj carry a lot of the same grapes. I’d think those so2 pads/misted trucks/ etc.. would effect other varietals very similarly.
And just a matter of time before doing frozen must.
——for the record I couldn’t be happier with how my 9 month old Chilean grapes are coming along. I Even sent a couple in to be evaluated to a contest and receive back some notes.

Good idea. I have the SC-100. I need to order some new reagents soon.

 

[JohnT]

I agree with @sdelliThe main reason I love doing Chilean grapes is that they are cheap

Cheap? For me, they are rather expensive. I expect to pay $26 per half-lug (18 pounds) for Chilean. That works out to $52 per full 36 pound lug (or about $20.80 per gallon). In contrast, a full lug of good quality California grapes (in the fall) costs me around $40 or $42 (or $16.80 per gallon).

What have you been paying?

 

[Johnd]

Cheap? For me, they are rather expensive. I expect to pay $26 per half-lug (18 pounds) for Chilean. That works out to $52 per full 36 pound lug (or about $20.80 per gallon). In contrast, a full lug of good quality California grapes (in the fall) costs me around $40 or $42 (or $16.80 per gallon).

What have you been paying?

After the comments about the Chileans last night, wifey and I popped one of the cabs, bottled last month, and drank it. It’s better than when bottled, and that distinctive taste I described is barely discernible, if not gone. Definitely moved up a notch or two in a short time, still hope on the horizon!

They’re not cheap for me either!! After being shipped from Chile, I pay to have them C/D, frozen, and shipped again, it’s serious business for me as well.

 

[ceeaton]

Cheap? For me, they are rather expensive. I expect to pay $26 per half-lug (18 pounds) for Chilean. That works out to $52 per full 36 pound lug (or about $20.80 per gallon). In contrast, a full lug of good quality California grapes (in the fall) costs me around $40 or $42 (or $16.80 per gallon).

What have you been paying?

I'll clarify, cheap compared to the frozen buckets from Brehem. I'm paying about what you are paying. Also, I tend to get a juice bucket and add one 18 lbs lug of grapes, which keeps 6+ gallons of finished wine under $100 (thanks to @Boatboy24 for leading me in that direction). The exception was a Bordeaux like blend I did in 2015, a Merlot bucket, plus an 18 lb lug each of Malbec, Cab Sauv and Merlot. It turned out pretty well in my opinion (as well as your groups' since you scored it as a 17.88).

 

[mainshipfred]

I agree with @sdelli, you get what you pay for. The main reason I love doing Chilean grapes is that they are cheap

Craig, I find at least the Chilean grapes to be more expensive then the Cali since you're only getting half the amount. The juices are about the same.

 

[mainshipfred]

I'm going to try two things that are different from my previous practices: 1) no added sulfite prior to fermentation and 2) co-innoculation of MLB.

I realize co-innoculation has shown success for some and the flavor profile is a personal thing. But in my first wine making class we were discussing the 2 methods. What I learned, and I hope I remember this correctly, when co-innoculation is done the bacteria is more aggressive toward the nutrients and starves the yeast slowing the alcoholic fermentation. Once MLF is complete the yeast has a new food source being the diacetyl produced by the bacteria. Thus reducing the buttery flavor. It's still softer but without the butter. I also learned the Malic to Lactic conversion is about half which would explain why the ph increases after MLF. That's probably the most interesting thing although a bunch of trivial topics were discussed.

 

[Boatboy24]

I realize co-innoculation has shown success for some and the flavor profile is a personal thing. But in my first wine making class we were discussing the 2 methods. What I learned, and I hope I remember this correctly, when co-innoculation is done the bacteria is more aggressive toward the nutrients and starves the yeast slowing the alcoholic fermentation. Once MLF is complete the yeast has a new food source being the diacetyl produced by the bacteria. Thus reducing the buttery flavor. It's still softer but without the butter. I also learned the Malic to Lactic conversion is about half which would explain why the ph increases after MLF. That's probably the most interesting thing although a bunch of trivial topics were discussed.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing, Fred.

 

[ibglowin]

Here is a pretty good paper from Lallemand on the benefits of co-inoculation and what happens differently vs inoculation post AF.

http://lallemandwine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/WE4-Australia.pdf

Yes if you want a buttery Chard you should not do co-inoculation.

The conversion of Malic to Lactic is the same in both procedures. The pH shift occurs because you are replacing a strong acid (Malic) with a weaker acid (Lactic).

 

[ceeaton]

Craig, I find at least the Chilean grapes to be more expensive then the Cali since you're only getting half the amount. The juices are about the same.

Yes, I get that. My main point is that you can't get California grapes in the Spring, unless they are the Brehm or another company's, which are more expensive than the Chilean products. If I could get California/Washington/Oregon or even local grapes in the Spring, I'd buy those before I'd buy the Chilean. But in the Spring the Chilean are the easiest and least expensive winemaking alternative (other than a lower end kit) I can get, so I use them, and make decent wine with them.

 

[mainshipfred]

Here is a pretty good paper from Lallemand on the benefits of co-inoculation and what happens differently vs inoculation post AF.

http://lallemandwine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/WE4-Australia.pdf

Yes if you want a buttery Chard you should not do co-inoculation.

The conversion of Malic to Lactic is the same in both procedures. The pH shift occurs because you are replacing a strong acid (Malic) with a weaker acid (Lactic).

Good arcticle, took a while to digest all of it. Some of it seemed a bit contadictory to me (but what's new, this is winemaking) especially the acedic acid references. There were more positives then negatives and the reduction of diacetyl appears to enhance a more fruit foward taste. It mentioned several times the yeast/bacteria selection but other then low S02 and nitrogen production of the yeast it never referenced which yeasts were preferable. It also suggested that bonded sulfites would not have an affect on the growth of the MLB which is slightly different from what I understood.

 

[Johnd]

Good arcticle, took a while to digest all of it. Some of it seemed a bit contadictory to me (but what's new, this is winemaking) especially the acedic acid references. There were more positives then negatives and the reduction of diacetyl appears to enhance a more fruit foward taste. It mentioned several times the yeast/bacteria selection but other then low S02 and nitrogen production of the yeast it never referenced which yeasts were preferable. It also suggested that bonded sulfites would not have an affect on the growth of the MLB which is slightly different from what I understood.

Funny isn’t it? Bound SO2 affects MLB in one document, not so in another. Coinoculation will put your wine in imminent risk, others say it’s the best. The more I learned, the more I realized just how blurry the lines are, that makes some question super hard to respond to without first asking 10 of your own. It’s also what I love about winemaking, sorta like learning English, there are general rules, but those rules are violated all over the place.

 

[sdelli]

Cheap? For me, they are rather expensive. I expect to pay $26 per half-lug (18 pounds) for Chilean. That works out to $52 per full 36 pound lug (or about $20.80 per gallon). In contrast, a full lug of good quality California grapes (in the fall) costs me around $40 or $42 (or $16.80 per gallon).

What have you been paying?

I think the word cheap should mostly be used in product quality....
Just because you pay a lot of money for something it doesn’t necessarily make it a high end item.

 

[ceeaton]

... It mentioned several times the yeast/bacteria selection but other then low S02 and nitrogen production of the yeast it never referenced which yeasts were preferable...

Fred, I use the information on this page (http://www.lallemandwine.com/north-america/products/catalogue/) with a grain of salt. Click around and look at the Technical Information they have posted under any one yeast and it will show the a bunch of different items, including MLF compatibility and Suitability for co-innoculation. Here's and example for AMH:
Fermentation Speed
Slow

Lag Phase
Long

MLF Compatibility
Strongly recommended

Nitrogen Needs
Moderate

Alcohol Tolerance
15 %

Volatile Acidity
Low

SO₂ Production
Low

Max. Temperature
30 °C

Min. Temperature
20 °C

H₂S 170ppm
Low

H₂S 60ppm
Low

Suitability for co-Inoculation
Very recommended

Hope that is useful.

 

[mainshipfred]

Fred, I use the information on this page (http://www.lallemandwine.com/north-america/products/catalogue/) with a grain of salt. Click around and look at the Technical Information they have posted under any one yeast and it will show the a bunch of different items, including MLF compatibility and Suitability for co-innoculation. Here's and example for AMH:
Fermentation Speed
Slow

Lag Phase
Long

MLF Compatibility
Strongly recommended

Nitrogen Needs
Moderate

Alcohol Tolerance
15 %

Volatile Acidity
Low

SO₂ Production
Low

Max. Temperature
30 °C

Min. Temperature
20 °C

H₂S 170ppm
Low

H₂S 60ppm
Low

Suitability for co-Inoculation
Very recommended

Hope that is useful.

It is, thank you. Never used AHM.

 

[ceeaton]

It is, thank you. Never used AHM.

I just used that as an example. I have used AMH, it takes nearly twice as long to get a fermentation completed, so it's good if you want a bit more skin contact, plus I have no issues with the flavor profile so far (and didn't have an issue sequentially innoculation MLB in my Lanza Zin).

 

[Ajmassa]

After reading loads and loads of these MLF articles and studies about co inoculation vs sequential I now have a pretty good grasp on the deal. And Adding no so2 has served me well. Because for my money the pros outweigh the potential cons.
Coinoculation in general is quicker and more successful, contrary to chemsistry logic - the low alcohol environment is much more beneficial than they had thought it to be it seems.
Old school- sequential
New school - coinoculation.
Bound so2 affecting so2(true or not) is good to know. I don’t have fancy equipment, but my Chilean grapes already clocked in 35 free ppm at crush last May. No additions made And completed MLF in 3 weeks. No plans on changing this. I did however run into problems when skipping so2 on fall grapes. Those fall plans will be changing however.

 

[sdelli]

Coinoculate....
Field Blend....

It all works and is only decided on the choice you like when making wine. I am more of a control freak so I use neither.

 

[mainshipfred]

After reading loads and loads of these MLF articles and studies about co inoculation vs sequential I now have a pretty good grasp on the deal. And Adding no so2 has served me well. Because for my money the pros outweigh the potential cons.
Coinoculation in general is quicker and more successful, contrary to chemsistry logic - the low alcohol environment is much more beneficial than they had thought it to be it seems.
Old school- sequential
New school - coinoculation.
Bound so2 affecting so2(true or not) is good to know. I don’t have fancy equipment, but my Chilean grapes already clocked in 35 free ppm at crush last May. No additions made And completed MLF in 3 weeks. No plans on changing this. I did however run into problems when skipping so2 on fall grapes. Those fall plans will be changing however.

For me, after reading loads and loads of arcticles I'm more confused then ever. Then researching the side bars like Esters, Phenols etc. I've come to realize I know nothing about making wine.

 

[Johnd]

For me, after reading loads and loads of arcticles I'm more confused then ever. Then researching the side bars like Esters, Phenols etc. I've come to realize I know nothing about making wine.

LOL!! So many variables and considerations!! You just gotta find where you’re comfortable and what works for you, I’ve found my success spot and am making some really nice wine. I want to get better, it just takes time and experience, I no longer struggle with the decisions I did a few years ago, experience guides my actions, but I’m still a fledgling.

One professional winemaker I was talking to, on the topic of yeast and MLB made an interesting comment, and I’m paraphrasing, “We use natural yeast for our fermentations, the yeast has been present here for decades and has adapted to the environment, it is a part of the terrior and our wine. Same holds true for our MLF, we don’t add any, and with rare exception, it just happens, even in new barrels, so it’s in there too from the time we pick and crush the grapes.”

I’m not willing to take those risks. Is it in there from the start, or from once used barrels and spread during topping up? Hell, I don’t know. But if it is there the whole time, is that the same as coinoculation? Don’t know that either. Do they really add yeast and MLB and just don’t want to say so? Got me..... Always seem to be more questions than answers, I kinda like that.....you never really get to the end.

 

[mainshipfred]

LOL!! So many variables and considerations!! You just gotta find where you’re comfortable and what works for you, I’ve found my success spot and am making some really nice wine. I want to get better, it just takes time and experience, I no longer struggle with the decisions I did a few years ago, experience guides my actions, but I’m still a fledgling.

One professional winemaker I was talking to, on the topic of yeast and MLB made an interesting comment, and I’m paraphrasing, “We use natural yeast for our fermentations, the yeast has been present here for decades and has adapted to the environment, it is a part of the terrior and our wine. Same holds true for our MLF, we don’t add any, and with rare exception, it just happens, even in new barrels, so it’s in there too from the time we pick and crush the grapes.”

I’m not willing to take those risks. Is it in there from the start, or from once used barrels and spread during topping up? Hell, I don’t know. But if it is there the whole time, is that the same as coinoculation? Don’t know that either. Do they really add yeast and MLB and just don’t want to say so? Got me..... Always seem to be more questions than answers, I kinda like that.....you never really get to the end.

Like you said before "that makes some question super hard to respond to without first asking 10 of your own".