WineXpert Clearing Without Fining Agents

[Len]

I'm fairly new at wine making and have much to learn. I'm trying to get better at it by studying all the good postings on this forum. Much of it is still way over my head.
I've recently read Winemaker81's postings about clearing red wines both with and without kieselsol or chitosan (K&C). He described the results of his taste test as "the use of K&C reduced the aroma significantly and introduced a bitter note into the taste."
I'd like to try clearing my current batch of Winexpert Reserve California Enigma without adding K&C. However, I'm confused about when to add the "Reserve" pack to the wine.
Do I:
1) follow the kit instructions and add the Reserve the day after I have racked the wine from the primary fermenter into a carboy and added k-meta/k-sorbate
or
b) save the Reserve and k-meta/k-sorbate for a much later time, adding only k-meta at the first racking?

I do understand that clearing the wine this way means bulk aging it much longer than the 42 days prescribed in the kit instructions. Winemaker81 aged his wines 12 months and I plan to try and do the same.
Any advice anyone can share with me is much appreciated.
-Len

 

[cmason1957]

If by first racking, you mean that it has been about 7 days since you pitched yeast and the sg is around 1.010 maybe 1.000, then you don't want to add anything.

if you mean it's been more like 14 days and the sg has been at something like 0.996 or less for a few days in a row, then yes at that point I rack and add K-Meta.

If I am adding a reserve pak (or backsweetening the wine) I don't add the K-meta + k-Sorbate until I am nearly ready to bottle and then my process is K-Meta + K-Sorbate added to some water or to about 100 ml of the wine, then to the rest of the wine, stirred well and a day, two, week later add the sugar or reserve pak. I will have added K-Meta every three months or so while it is bulk aging. I wait so there is less yeast in the mix for the K-Sorbate to work on.

 

[winemaker81]

It appears there's sugar in the Reserve Pack since the WE site shows sweetness as 1/10 whereas reds are normally 0/10.

I'm on the same page as Craig, although if you bulk age 9 months, you can then add the Reserve pack without adding sorbate. Add K-meta and bulk age a further 2 months before bottling. This gives you time to ensure it's not refermenting (it shouldn't) and for the addition to integrate into the wine.

 

[Shurt1073]

I'd like to try clearing my current batch of Winexpert Reserve California Enigma without adding K&C.

I do understand that clearing the wine this way means bulk aging it much longer than the 42 days prescribed in the kit instructions. Winemaker81 aged his wines 12 months and I plan to try and do the same.
Any advice anyone can share with me is much appreciated.
-Len

Len

I'm sure others are watching to see your path but especially me since I'm buying this same Reserve Enigma kit next month or maybe August. Did not realize it came with a second bag since I've never made a WE reserve kit. Please keep us posted on your progress and decisions. Good luck.

 

[winemaker81]

I'm sure others are watching to see your path but especially me since I'm buying this same Reserve Enigma kit next month or maybe August. Did not realize it came with a second bag since I've never made a WE reserve kit. Please keep us posted on your progress and decisions. Good luck.

When buying WE, go to their site and look at the kits. Anything where Sweetness is at least 1/10 indicates an F-pack will be present.

 

[Len]

Thank you all for your responses. Exactly what I was hoping for.
I pitched the yeast on 6/17. S.G. was 1.090
On 6/21 I measured the S.G. at 1.010
I expect to rack into my carboy on 7/1 if the S.G. comes in at <.996
I will post my progress.
Thanks guys!
-Len
edit: I forgot to mention that I'm using RC 212 yeast instead of the EC-1118 that came in the kit.

 

[Shurt1073]

When buying WE, go to their site and look at the kits. Anything where Sweetness is at least 1/10 indicates an F-pack will be present.

Had no idea. Thanks!

Len, Its good to know that EC-1118 came with the kit. I will order the RC 212 yeast with my order. Keep up with the updates on 7/1.

 

[Len]

Update:
The S.G. came in at .994 this morning so I racked it from the fermenter bucket to a carboy, added 1/4 tsp K-meta, stirred to degas and installed an airlock. I put the full carboy on a shelf and wrapped a towel around it.

 

[Shurt1073]

Who has two thumbs and his WE Enigma Reserve kit just arrived today "THIS GUY"! points thumbs towards myself


I'm excited to get it going but because of some other commitments the wine kit needs to wait a couple weeks. The Enigma and Carmenere arrived today with X2 packets of RC 212 yeast. No sorbate or K&C for the Enigma wine. This is my first WineXpert Reserve kit.

 

[Shurt1073]

My California Enigma hit .994 or .996 sg). So I racked into glass.

I intend to use the sorbate and clearing agents which contradicts what I originally wanted to do a couple of weeks ago. This is my first WineXpert reserve kit plus it came with a second bag. The flavor or sweetener bag is thin ..... not thick like a fruit flavored kit. It almost has a watery honey taste? Its nothing I've ever dealt with before or tasted, so this is an interesting kit.

 

[cmason1957]

Crap. Ignore.

 

[cmason1957]

My California Enigma hit .994 or .996 sg). So I racked into glass.

I intend to use the sorbate and clearing agents which contradicts what I originally wanted to do a couple of weeks ago. This is my first WineXpert reserve kit plus it came with a second bag. The flavor or sweetener bag is thin ..... not thick like a fruit flavored kit. It almost has a watery honey taste? Its nothing I've ever dealt with before or tasted, so this is an interesting kit.

I have hesitated to suggest that I don't agree that waiting 9 months or so can assume that all yeast are now dead and inactive. It just takes one or two and I won't take that chance myself. If I am adding some sugar after fermentation, I am adding kmeta and k sorbate.

 

[winemaker81]

I have hesitated to suggest that I don't agree that waiting 9 months or so can assume that all yeast are now dear and inactive. It just takes one or two and I won't take that chance myself. If I am adding some sugar after fermentation, I am adding kmeta and k sorbate.

I updated my sorbate/no-sorbate thread with initial test results -- the wine fermented in the bottle. It's not blowing corks, but my version of backsweetening is less than most, so there wasn't enough sugar to do so, although I'm watching the bottles.

While I trust @Rice_Guy's statement that the yeast is dead, this is also the space where I've been making wine for 20 years, so it's very likely yeast is in the air. And as you said, it doesn't make much.

I only popped one cork so far, but will be popping the remaining 4 in upcoming months. Until I am able to firmly determine the cause, I'll resume using sorbate for the few batches I backsweeten.

 

[Shurt1073]

I have hesitated to suggest that I don't agree that waiting 9 months or so can assume that all yeast are now dear and inactive. It just takes one or two and I won't take that chance myself. If I am adding some sugar after fermentation, I am adding kmeta and k sorbate.

No worries ... not like you were trying to be confrontational or anything. I'm not sure I agree with not using sorbate or clearing agents myself. The Enigma had the second sweetener bag included, plus its my first Reserve kit. You know, we pay a little extra for the Reserve kits so with all that being said it was not a kit I wanted to experiment with after all.

I have a FWK Syrah I started 5 weeks ago. When it was done fermenting after 15 days, racked into glass with a dose of K-meta and its been sitting. This will be my experiment wine because there was no sweetener included or second bag. After seeing Bryans post, I intend to use sorbate but still no clearing agents at this time. At the end of bulk aging, I want to split the batch and add clearing agents to half and see if the other half has cleared on its own. I wonder if I will be able to taste the difference clearing agents vs no clearing agents. I'd like to add one more thing, after a year of bulk aging if the Syrah isn't clear enough for me without K&C then I'm going to use clearing agents because I like a clear wine with no sediment.

 

[winemaker81]

I have a FWK Syrah I started 5 weeks ago. When it was done fermenting after 15 days, racked into glass with a dose of K-meta and its been sitting. This will be my experiment wine because there was no sweetener included or second bag. After seeing Bryans post, I intend to use sorbate but still no clearing agents at this time. At the end of bulk aging, I want to split the batch and add clearing agents to half and see if the other half has cleared on its own. I wonder if I will be able to taste the difference clearing agents vs no clearing agents. I'd like to add one more thing, after a year of bulk aging if the Syrah isn't clear enough for me without K&C then I'm going to use clearing agents because I like a clear wine with no sediment.

Just to be clear, if the wine is dry and you are not backsweetening, there is no need to add sorbate. The Syrah will not need it, just add K-meta at bottling time, not the finishing pack.

I look forward to the results of your fining agent test.

If you get sediment in a bottle of red, you may not realize it for years. I was doing bâtonnage on my 2021 wines, and stopped stirring at the monthly topup 3 months before bottling. I'm now finding it wasn't enough time to settle the wine, and I'm getting a fine sediment in the bottles, which is actually well compacted. These wines are dark enough that a bit of sediment in the last glass is not visible and it has no effect on taste. I realized it only from looking at the bottle afterward and in the tiny bit left in the bottom of the glass.

My new protocol is to stir the barrels for 6 months and let rest for 6. We'll see how this works with the 2022's.

 

[Rice_Guy]

While I trust @Rice_Guy's statement that the yeast is dead, this is also the space where I've been making wine for 20 years, so it's very likely yeast is in the air. And as you said, it doesn't make much.

Micro kill is a numbers game. Example commercially sterile is defined as killing 10 to the ninth power of microorganisms. There are many ways that we can get kill since wine is a multiple variable preservation system. ex. low pH/ high SO2/ low oxygen/ high alcohol/ high room temperature/ low residual sugar/ low nitrogen/ running clarification techniques/ partial filtering above 0.45 micron/ and others for industry as pressure/ pasteurizing/ electric pulse/ UV/ velcorin.
There are techniques which help stabilize the population such that kill isn’t as effective as lowering the temperature or having no free SO2 or starting with over 10 to the ninth micro count.

Food processing rules are written with some CYA. BUT are good enough so that it is safe to buy canned beans from the store.

 

[Len]

Well, I promised to follow up with my "Enigma" experiment so here goes:
Short description is it is a success. The wife says it's now her favorite.
I started the Winexpert Reserve kit on 6/17/23
I used RC212 yeast instead of the EC1118 that was in the kit
Racked to carboy and added Kmeta 7/1/23
Added sorbate 8/11/23
Added reserve pack 8/12/23
Added Kmeta 10/22/23
Clearing rack and Kmeta 3/15/24
Added Kmeta 5/22/24
bottled 5/29/24

I didn't use any clearing agents. I let time do its job. (Thank you Bryan)
We are very pleased with the early results. Seems to have a touch of sweetness when you first taste it and a lot of flavor.
I'll let it sit in the bottles for a few weeks and then check to see what we really have.
I think I've learned quite a bit doing this kit. All you guys have helped me a lot and I thank you for that.
-Len