Cluster Thinning (Frontenac)

[marquettematt]

That's no surprise about the round-up. Hemstad did say that resistance to herbicide was a deciding factor in selecting the vine. I never see any damage on it. It's very reliable in that regard. How do you feel about oaking it? How did you oak it?

 

[KevinL]

I used chips. I am quite partial to oak, and a lot of the friends I share my wine with are oak fans as well. I have one friend whom I would describe as happy to take a bite out of an oak branch. I added one ounce of american chips and left the wine on them for 3 months. Ended up being very oaky. I'd probably go a little lighter next time (fewer chips/gallon or less time on the oak). I'm hoping my harvest is big enough this year that I can pull aside some for bench trials and experimental batches.

I had read mixed reviews about Oaking Frontenac. I think if I had some residual sugar I would have been a little more hesitant than I already was to drop the oak in. Also when vocalizing my "to oak or not to oak" question around my circle of friends I got a "oak, duh" response. Knowing their tastes, I wasn't surprised. Overall I like how it turned out, so I intend to do the same to this years harvest.

 

[marquettematt]

Good to know. My one shot at making wine from Frontenac was pretty rough. Just looking to the future for ideas on how to manage mine.

 

[Stressbaby]

I'm going to jump in here, not sure this question is thread-worthy by itself.
I'm seeing color change on my Frontenac already. Seems early. Do I need to cover with the bird netting already?

 

[marquettematt]

I'm going to jump in here, not sure this question is thread-worthy by itself.
I'm seeing color change on my Frontenac already. Seems early. Do I need to cover with the bird netting already?

Definitely wouldn't hurt. That is very early. Not even the native riparia here are changing. Where are you located?

 

[KevinL]

Unless you think that the change is something other than veraison I'd get the nets up. On the upside the battle against black rot will be over early for you.

Good to know. My one shot at making wine from Frontenac was pretty rough. Just looking to the future for ideas on how to manage mine.

From the calls I've made and the people I've talked to about it it seems like wineries are moving away from Frontenac other than for ports and blending low acid wines. We'll see where all of these experiments leave me at the end of next year.

 

[BigH]

In 2017, my frontenac broke bud around April 15 and reached veraison on July 19. We had accumulated 1714 GDD at that point. This year, it broke bud on May 6th, but we are 200 GDD ahead of last year and currently sit at 1600. If GDD accumulation is a good barometer, than I should start seeing color change in about a week.

H

 

[marquettematt]

For me its usually early-mid August. When I made wine from it I harvested too early. It tasted like fresh-cut grass smells.

 

[Karl]

I know that Frontenacs are vigorous, but I wasn't expecting them to push out shoots with 4 clusters on them.

I've read mixed things about cluster thinning, some saying that it has limited effect on fruit quality and vine health, and others saying that fruit quality and vine health are at risk if no cluster thinning is done. Most of the research I've read has been on Vinifera varieties with longer growing seasons than I have here in Northern Illinois.

4 clusters per shoot seems a bit excessive to me though. For those Frontenac growers out there, how much cluster thinning do you do if any? Before fruit set or after if it is done? How many clusters per shoot do you typically look for?

I know that things generally come down to region/soil/weather and other local conditions. One of my thoughts is just to do an vineyard experiment with some vines getting more cluster thinning than others and seeing where things end up, recording results for future seasons.

I've made decent wine from Frontenac in the past. The vines can easily over crop and carry 30 lbs of fruit, which even when fully ripe makes a dull red wine. This year i am reducing back to around 40 clusters per vine (2 clusters per shoot) in an effort to pick about 13-15 lbs. My vines are growing in fertile soil and do pretty well, no black rot or other crap. Typically i have no issues with the acidity here in No. Illinois, as we can easily ripen Frontenac by mid September.

 

[Karl]

AS far as vinifying goes, I can't give much advice but growing Frontenac is a different story. I usually get 3 cluster shoots. In their 5th year I pruned them down to 2 cluster shoots with 7 or 8, 2 bud spurs on 2 arms. It was relatively disease-free, but I could see the over-cropping effect the next year. 75% bud kill from winter damage after a winter low of -3 or 4. I made the mistake of counting on that bolstered winter hardiness to save the vine in case I over-cropped. Its year 7 and it recovered nicely. I pruned the same but only 1 cluster per shoot. As rule of thumb, you should cluster thin outer to inner and you should thin it pre-bloom. If you're getting 4 clusters per shoot in an area that gets relatively less light intensity ( I say that because light intensity is a big factor on next years productivity), you have a healthier site. 2 clusters might be fine but don't be surprised if you get winter damage. Over-cropping can be detrimental to vine health and fruit quality. The ripening fruit becomes a sink for nutrients and can spread the vine too thin. Some vines are hard to over-crop. Frontenac is not such a vine. What I do know about making wine with it is this- let the fruit hang as long as possible and get that acid down. It also helps dissipate the herbaceous flavors associated with fronenac.. IIRC, Peter Hemstad, the breeder from U of MN who created that vine among others, said that it is best blended with Marquette

It really does matter where you grow any vines and how much sunlight they receive. Good exposure allows for the vines to properly harden off for the winter. If someone has 4 clusters per shoot, then i would assume they have perfectly fine sun exposure and likely no problems in the winter either. My Frontenac carried 3 clusters per shoot for years and never suffered any damage in temps -15F and below. For the record my Frontenac are now in their 7th year.

 

[KevinL]

I've made decent wine from Frontenac in the past. The vines can easily over crop and carry 30 lbs of fruit, which even when fully ripe makes a dull red wine. This year i am reducing back to around 40 clusters per vine (2 clusters per shoot) in an effort to pick about 13-15 lbs. My vines are growing in fertile soil and do pretty well, no black rot or other crap. Typically i have no issues with the acidity here in No. Illinois, as we can easily ripen Frontenac by mid September.

Hi Karl, thanks for the input and welcome to the forum. Where in Northern Illinois are you?

I haven't had any issues with the Frontenac in the winter thus far, but we'll see as things progress.

 

[Stressbaby]

A pic of my Frontenac. I can now see that one of the vines is not Frontenac, color distinctly different.

When do you start checking brix?

 

[BigH]

When do you start checking brix?

3rd week of August in Iowa for for Frontenac. My initial focus is on varieties that I know I will harvest before Frontenac. TA is my primary harvest parameter for Frontenac, and I don't bother measuring that until I see the pH of my smaller samples come up. I measure brix at the same time to make sure it is coming along.The sugar on Frontenac seems to reach 25 well before it is ready to harvest

H

 

[Stressbaby]

3rd week of August in Iowa for for Frontenac. My initial focus is on varieties that I know I will harvest before Frontenac. TA is my primary harvest parameter for Frontenac, and I don't bother measuring that until I see the pH of my smaller samples come up. I measure brix at the same time to make sure it is coming along.The sugar on Frontenac seems to reach 25 well before it is ready to harvest

H

So your Frontenac is dark (in color) for weeks before harvest?

 

[BigH]

So your Frontenac is dark (in color) for weeks before harvest?

Yeah. Last year it hit veraison on July 19 and I harvested on Sept 9. Netting is a must.

H

 

[Karl]

I'm in the

Hi Karl, thanks for the input and welcome to the forum. Where in Northern Illinois are you?

I haven't had any issues with the Frontenac in the winter thus far, but we'll see as things progress.

I'm in the far western suburbs.

My Frontenac started veraison about July 23rd, same as last year and last year i harvested on Sept 10th. Thinking i would like to make a Rose this year, and i need to do a better job removing clusters so i have about 15 lbs per vine. Thus far everything is on schedule, very similar to last year.

 

[KevinL]

I too am in the Western Suburbs. I'd love to come by and check out your operation if you're open to the idea. I've been trying to find someone close to review information with. Shoot me a PM.

 

[Karl]

I too am in the Western Suburbs. I'd love to come by and check out your operation if you're open to the idea. I've been trying to find someone close to review information with. Shoot me a PM.

No operation here, just some vines in my yard. Ideally if i purchase a bigger property then i will put something proper together. For now i am just experimenting with growing around 20-25 different varieties around the yard.

I am downtown Geneva.

 

[Stressbaby]

Just as a data point - here in Central MO we had veraison on the Frontenac first week of July. My Frontenac is now at pH 2.79, 24 brix; I stopped the TA test at 1.2% just because I'm running low on 0.2N NaOH. Confirms @BigH comments above about brix relative to the acid drop.

 

[marquettematt]

It really does matter where you grow any vines and how much sunlight they receive. Good exposure allows for the vines to properly harden off for the winter. If someone has 4 clusters per shoot, then i would assume they have perfectly fine sun exposure and likely no problems in the winter either. My Frontenac carried 3 clusters per shoot for years and never suffered any damage in temps -15F and below. For the record my Frontenac are now in their 7th year.

Absolutely, but mine get plenty of sun also. the only proper conclusion, I think, is nutrient intake or simply soil type itself. One of Frontenac's parents is a pure Minnesota riparia. I'm sure that soil type in northern IL is closer to that than south-central IN.