Correcting 'flowers' in wine

[Jal5]

I had a red wine bulk aging last winter in a 5 gallon carboy that was correctly fitted with bung and airlock that developed the flowers in wine problem- some kind of stuff floating up to the top of the neck of the bottle. I researched it here and elsewhere and determined it to be mycoderma. I treated it by screening it through multiple layers of cheesecloth and adding a heavy dose- 1/4 tsp of Kmeta and immediately bottling it. I have tasted it since then and it is just a meh kind of merlot, nothing great, it has a taste of the kmeta still I think and if I take the time to decant it when serving it is better but still meh.

I know have two 5 gallon bottles of red wine bulk aging that have the same problem- one from last spring juice and one from last fall juice. Picture is attached. sorry for the bad cellphone pic.

Is there any other remedy and why am I getting this again? I am pretty stringent about cleanliness of all items used in making wine and it is correctly sealed to keep out air while aging. I am not sure what is really causing the problem. thanks.
Joe

 

[salcoco]

the normal causes which you seem to have addressed are sanitation, air leaks , ph and k-meta dosage. if the ph is high might need heavier dosage of k-meta. I would rack and do a double dose of k-meta for the wine you say have problems.

 

[Jal5]

I need to take a pH reading and will post those results. Thx. Joe

 

[Jal5]

pH tester is on the way, but I decided to not fool around with this and racked and added Kmeta 1/2 tsp to both the 6 gal carboy and the 5 gal carboy. strange that I have a 1 gal jug of the same wine that is in the 5 gal carboy and no signs of anything on the top of the bottle neck. Maybe I am just seeing binder ingredients from the campdens that I crushed last racking, where as this time I added powdered kmeta and mixed it in well? I will keep an eye on it closely over the next several weeks. both taste and smell good, just need more aging time. the question will be whether I bottle early or let them stay in carboy.

Joe

 

[NCWC]

get a spray bottle of 70proof vodka or do a 70/30 everclear and water
spray in the bottle, couple squirts it will most likely go away

 

[Ajmassa]

Hey @Jal5, are you sure it’s mycoderma?
I’ve had mycoderma, but also surface crud I mistook for mycoderma at times.
The instance i did indeed have legitimate flowers of wine— it was unmistakable. The surface growth looked like tiny little rice kernels close up almost. The wine took on a brownish tint. and the smell and taste was so bitter. There was no question what it was. It sat with a ton of headspace with no sulphites for an extended period of time.

But i also had some fake-outs too. In carboys, topped up and properly sulphited. Yet the surfaces developed some sort of growth it seemed. Smelled good. Tasted good. But still surface crud. It wasn’t mycoderma fortunately. I can’t explain what it was exactly, and it still happens every so often. It’s almost as if lees from the bottom goes into suspension and collected on the surface. I’m sure there’s a scientific reason for the cause. i just don’t know it.
Now when i see it i will use a rolled up paper towel to skim the top, wipe the rim clean, and give the carboy a confident spritz of kmeta sanitizer directly into the neck and plug ‘er back up.

 

[David Violante]

I’ve had the same experience as AJ, and the folks here related that it could be excess proteins and non-dissolvable items floating up. I’ve done the same thing, wiped it away, made sure I had enough sulfite, sprayed with kmeta and said a little prayer.

 

[Ajmassa]

I’ve had the same experience as AJ, and the folks here related that it could be excess proteins and non-dissolvable items floating up. I’ve done the same thing, wiped it away, made sure I had enough sulfite, sprayed with kmeta and said a little prayer.

Interesting. I still haven’t figured out what causes it. But i am positive it’s not mycoderma. Tho i cant determine if @Jal5 has the same thing going on from the blurry pic——but it certainly sounds like it.
Some of my wines get it. Some don’t. In both high ph & low ph. Always properly sulphited. Fully topped up. Smell unaffected. Taste unaffected. Who knows.
My gut tells me it stems from room conditions. Temps, pressure, humidity etc.
The first time i dealt with it i also feared mycoderma since it would return soon after removing. I racked, dosed high so2, bottled and monitored. Never got worse or developed more growth. Aged nicely actually.

@Jal5 This thread below is when i 1st experienced the issue. Maybe you’ll find something useful in it.
*spoiler alert*- it has a happy ending.

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/lees-rising-to-top.64949/

 

[David Violante]

I’m curious, mine occurred in all the carboys where I used nutrients and bentonite. I’m not saying there’s a correlation, more so asking if that could be a contributing factor? Also, only in the ones that are from grapes. My mead and cranberry don’t have it. No bad smells or tastes either. Here’s a few other pictures. This was when I was tasting and before cleaning and adding to top off...

 

[Ajmassa]

I’m curious, mine occurred in all the carboys where I used nutrients and bentonite. I’m not saying there’s a correlation, more so asking if that could be a contributing factor? Also, only in the ones that are from grapes. My mead and cranberry don’t have it. No bad smells or tastes either. Here’s a few other pictures. This was when I was tasting and before cleaning and adding to top off...

View attachment 70425 View attachment 70426 View attachment 70427

Yep same stuff, although those pics are a bit more extreme. As temps drop and levels falls that mess stays stuck to the sides. I feel your pain. i hate it. But seems harmless as far as i can tell. I used to think i was the only one dealing with it.

And yes, always wine from red grapes. As far as other common denominators it’s a guessing game. i don’t use bentonite ever. I always use nutrients during fermentation. I’ve found no correlation to the wines that get it to the ones that don’t. In the thread i linked in my last post there’s a couple pics.

Right now i’ve got 15+ carboys & demi’s filled and fortunately they’ve all got clean surfaces. That’s rare though. usually there’s at least one or 2. i racked and sulphited most of it a month ago.

 

[David Violante]

AJ do you use KMeta tabs or powder? I am using tabs at the moment (using up what I bought in bulk) and am switching to powder. Not sure how I thought taking a powder, turning it into a tablet, to crush it back into a powder, was super helpful. I’m going to call it an experience builder. I’m wondering if, as someone here suggested, it’s partly a binding agent? I’m going to take a sample and see what i can find with a microscope.

 

[David Violante]

@Jal5 I feel like we’ve sidetracked your OP a little, is the conversation helpful? Has your condition returned / how’s it going?

 

[Jal5]

Thx guys for those pictures. Mine looks similar but not as much film as David’s. The two 5 g carboys are fine so far no sign of the film. The 1 g just developed some film. I will treat with powdered kmeta today. No white wines ever develop it only the reds.

 

[Jal5]

Maybe these pics will help?

 

[Jal5]

AJ read your thread. Hope mine has a similar happy result!

 

[Jal5]

Took pH today 1/2 g can sauv 3.52
Some film at neck of bottle. Siphoned into two 750 bottles added kmeta and corked. Will see how this goes now. Smell and taste is good.
here is the neck with film pic.
joe

 

[Ajmassa]

AJ do you use KMeta tabs or powder? I am using tabs at the moment (using up what I bought in bulk) and am switching to powder. Not sure how I thought taking a powder, turning it into a tablet, to crush it back into a powder, was super helpful. I’m going to call it an experience builder. I’m wondering if, as someone here suggested, it’s partly a binding agent? I’m going to take a sample and see what i can find with a microscope.

Both. sorta. carboys i use powder. demis and barrel i use the indose granules (not the tabs). Haven’t noticed any correlation though.

Took pH today 1/2 g can sauv 3.52
Some film at neck of bottle. Siphoned into two 750 bottles added kmeta and corked. Will see how this goes now. Smell and taste is good.
here is the neck with film pic.
joeView attachment 70887

It does sound and look like the same thing. But either way you are handling properly. Confident all will be fine in the end.

 

[David Violante]

Follow up on the microscopy~ below are a bunch of pics from two different carboys that has the floating material on the top. The furthest pictures are 100x, then 400x, then 1000x. It looks like yeast with some budding, and there are some pics with bentonite crystals. UCDavis has a great site for microscopy of wine~ I hope these come out ok, I used an iPhone against the lens. I’m still working on what they actually are... the wine smells and tastes great still...

 

[David Violante]

Follow up to the follow up:

I emailed with a very helpful microbiologist from UC Davis who related that the condition was a biofilm consistent with Candida and that it would be difficult to figure out anything more specifically unless we did DNA testing. There are other types of biofilms also, including mycoderma (flowers of wine).

There are about six types of Candida on their website, and this one looks the most like Candida stellata. Their site has some interesting information about its involvement in/with wine. He suggested maintaining proper headspace, SO2 management, and cellular temperature below 12C (53.6F). He also sent a link to Purdue's website about biofilms: Treatment of Film Yeasts.

There are still no changes in taste, color, smell, etc... This looks like the perfect time to pitch the idea "we need a wine cellar with a partition for a cold storage fruit cellar for all the things from our garden" to my wife...

 

[stickman]

@David Violante I usually build first and then answer questions when the yelling starts; this method has worked for 32yrs of marriage so far.