Degassing Question for a batch of Dragon Blood

[CGish]

I have brewed my own beer for several years, but wine is new territory for me. I just purchased an All In One Wine Pump from Steve and used it yesterday to rack 6 gallons of WineXpert Chocolate Raspberry Port and 13 gallons of Dragon Blood. Both of these recipes call for the wine to be completely degassed so they will clear. I am not worried about the Port since I intend to leave it in the carboy for a while. It will need racked a few more times and splash racking with the AIO will remove the remaining gas. However, the Dragon Blood instructions call for a complete degassing so the wine will clear.

My question is: When is the wine adequately degassed for the purposes of clearing? I racked the Dragon Blood twice specifically for the purpose of degassing. A lot of gas came out with both rackings. I put AIO HeadSpace Eliminators on the carboys, and the bulbs remained collapsed overnight. However, when I run the vacuum pump on these carboys I still get bubbles. I have attached two links to a video of what happens when the pump runs. The first link is a lower quality version that is about 11 mb. The second link is to a higher quality version of the video that is about 160 mb.

Video:

Small: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dcx2y4f98ks52t3/DegassingQuestion.mp4?dl=0

Large: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lj5rygub0baz4c3/DegassingLG.mp4?dl=0

The Dragon Blood will get at least one more racking at bottling time, so it should be completely degassed at that point. My question is whether the wine is degassed enough for the rapid clearing called for in the Dragon Blood recipe.

Thank You,
Cody

 

[Boatboy24]

Seeing what appears to be larger bubbles, that wine seems to be degassed. Have you tasted it? Do you sense any carbonation on the tongue?

 

[CGish]

No, I have not tasted it. I can open it up and get a sample, but I just racked it yesterday and mixed in the Potassium Metabisulfite, Potassium Sorbate, and Sparkolloid. Wine is a new adventure for me, so I have no idea what those things will do to the taste. I assume you are looking for that sparking feeling at the tip of your tongue that you get when you drink soda?

 

[vacuumpumpman]

I agree with Jim ^

It appears that the wine is degassed - I would add your clarifying agent now.

How did you like using the Allinonewinepump to transfer ?

 

[CGish]

Steve,

I loved the AllInOne pump. The thirteen gallons of DB was in a 20 gallon brute trashcan in my fermentation chamber. That chamber is a repurposed chest freezer controlled by a BrewPi. The pump meant I didn't have to lift 110 lbs of liquid up over the lip of the chamber and onto a table to rack. I have 5 gallons of Chocolate Porter to bottle today. After I use the bottling attachment, I'll put a proper review in the AllInOne thread.

Thanks,
Cody

 

[CGish]

Thank you to Jim and Steve for your replies.

 

[Boatboy24]

I assume you are looking for that sparking feeling at the tip of your tongue that you get when you drink soda?

Yep, that's the one.

 

[CGish]

To close this thread out, here is a picture of this batch at bottling time. The first racking (above) was on 9/21 and I bottled on 10/14. The wine cleared perfectly.

Thank you Jim and Steve for your input.

 

[Ferb]

If it appears to be degassed, are those bubbles caused from the vacuum pump boiling the wine?

 

[bkisel]

If it appears to be degassed, are those bubbles caused from the vacuum pump boiling the wine?

Yes, please explain how having large bubbles come out under vacuum means/indicates a batch of wine has been degassed. In my hand pump degassing I will get small bubbles at first and then later on larger bubbles - am I done degassing when I see the larger bubbles coming up?

Thanks...

 

[Deezil]

Bill,

Basically.
CO2 will almost always come out as tiny bubbles - think about when you open up a soda, carbonated water, etc.
I dont exactly remember the science behind it, but I do remember that the little bubbles are CO2, and when they stop, you can stop degassing.

'What' the other bubbles, are, i'm not sure.
I'd guess the larger bubbles are dissolved oxygen.

 

[sour_grapes]

'What' the other bubbles, are, i'm not sure.
But if we had an absolute vacuum on the carboy, and we ran out of CO2, and there was nothing else to suck out (dissolved oxygen, for example), the reading on the vacuum pump would climb and climb, the level of the wine would climb, and either get sucked in the vacuum hose or the the carboy imploded. It's gonna pull *something*, it's a vacuum.

I do not know what the large bubbles are compared to the small bubbles, either.

However, most of that last sentence is not correct, and I would like to set the record straight.

Vacuums do not "pull" anything. It is only the absence of pressure. To evacuate a chamber, you basically open a hole to a place where there are no molecules, and give the randomly moving molecules inside the carboy the opportunity to leave. Nothing makes them leave other than the probability that they leave through the hole and never return. You might visualize this as opening the gate to a rambunctious flock of sheep.

If you had a very capable vacuum pump operating on a vessel of wine, the various components in the vessel would be removed. They actually would all be leaving the vessel from the get-go, but the components with higher vapor pressures would be removed more quickly. Thus, the components would be exhausted chiefly in order of their vapor pressure.
Obviously, the first thing to be removed when you start the pump is the air in the headspace. CO2 and other dissolved gases would dominate the outward flow next. Eventually, alcohol and water would be the components with the highest remaining vapor pressure. The level of the liquid would not rise. The absolute pressure in the vessel would remain at about 18 Torr (AKA mmHg) until all the water was evaporated.

In the theoretical limit of a perfect vacuum, nothing would remain in the carboy. However, the carboy would not implode or anything of the like. The net pressure (i.e., outside pressure minus inside pressure) on the carboy under "perfect" vacuum is only about 2% higher than it would be when the dissolved gases were removed but the wine remained in the carboy.

I personally have achieved vacuums of 1/10,000,000,000,000 (or 0.000000000001%) of atmospheric pressure. This is lower than the pressure in outer space.

 

[Deezil]

However, most of that last sentence is not correct, and I would like to set the record straight.

Vacuums do not "pull" anything. It is only the absence of pressure. To evacuate a chamber, you basically open a hole to a place where there are no molecules, and give the randomly moving molecules inside the carboy the opportunity to leave. Nothing makes them leave other than the probability that they leave through the hole and never return. You might visualize this as opening the gate to a rambunctious flock of sheep.

I think you might be reading too much, into my 30-second reply..

But, wouldn't the absence of pressure made by the vacuum, increase the probability that they (molecules) would leave... In essence, making them leave? I see it more like opening the gate to a rambunctious flock of sheep, where "the pasture is greener on the other side". Sounds like we're seeing the emphasis differently..?

Anyway, I went for the 'descriptive visual' as opposed to the 'scientifically correct' explanation. I appreciate your attempt at accuracy, but honestly, I dont know enough or have the time to get into a real 'debate'. I know enough to realize that different compounds would vaporize and exit at their own rates, but not enough to check your math.

Appreciate the dedication though

 

[sour_grapes]

I think you might be reading too much, into my 30-second reply..

But, wouldn't the absence of pressure made by the vacuum, increase the probability that they (molecules) would leave... In essence, making them leave? I see it more like opening the gate to a rambunctious flock of sheep, where "the pasture is greener on the other side".

No, they are no more likely to leave the pen. What is different is that there are not multitudes of sheep on the other side of the gate haphazardly wandering back IN to the pen in question.

Anyway, I went for the 'descriptive visual' as opposed to the 'scientifically correct' explanation.

That is fine; the main thing I wanted to convey to other people was that the wine level will not rise nor will it get sucked up into the pump. Other people may not have realized that you were speaking, uhh, metaphorically, as the statements you made sounded somewhat factual.

 

[CGish]

So the upshot of this - for us newbies - is that when the vacuum moves from pulling small bubbles to large ones, the CO2 is removed and we can move on. The larger bubbles are some other gas or product in solution that does not affect the wine making process in any significant detail.

Is my layman's understanding correct?

 

[Deezil]

So the upshot of this - for us newbies - is that when the vacuum moves from pulling small bubbles to large ones, the CO2 is removed and we can move on. The larger bubbles are some other gas or product in solution that does not affect the wine making process in any significant detail.

Is my layman's understanding correct?

That was the point, yeah.

 

[vacuumpumpman]

Sometimes simpler is better
I still like the term KISS - keep it simple stupid

 

[sour_grapes]

Sometimes simpler is better
I still like the term KISS - keep it simple stupid

Which case were you thinking of?

 

[vacuumpumpman]

Which case were you thinking of?

I was agreeing with these last 2 statements -


Originally Posted by CGish View Post
So the upshot of this - for us newbies - is that when the vacuum moves from pulling small bubbles to large ones, the CO2 is removed and we can move on. The larger bubbles are some other gas or product in solution that does not affect the wine making process in any significant detail.

Is my layman's understanding correct?
That was the point, yeah. Deezil