Dilution of juice

[Old Philosopher]

I've searched on several occasions, but haven't found a straight answer yet, so here goes:
I have juiced ~90 lbs of Italian Plums, giving me right at 5 gallons of syrupy juice. What would be a reasonable dilution of this juice to still maintain flavor?
Based upon my limited experience, I'm guessing 1:1 with water would be okay.
Any thoughts, advice....shocked looks...?

 

[Scooter68]

What is the SG of the juice now? Chances are if you want a really good tasting drink you won't dilute at all.

Plum wine is one wine I think definitely benefits from NOT being diluted at all. Gekkisan (sp?) makes great plum wine that is almost like a cordial just not thick. Our kids brought back a wine from Myanmar - can't read of word of the label but when we opened it.... another beautiful rich tasting Plum. I'm not one to say never dilute your fruit, some are fine with a 1:1 water fruit mix but Plum I think would be best without dilution. Someone may shoot that idea down but...

 

[Julie]

I'm with Scooter68 on this. I won't dilute either

 

[ceeaton]

I would check the SG like the others have suggested. If it is through the roof high, and you want a wine and not a port/cordial etc, I'd add a complimentary fruit juice (red, not overly sweet) to dilute it down to the level of potential alcohol you are looking for. I like most of my fruit wines around a SG of 1.090 or below, otherwise they end up tasting hot and need quite a bit of aging to smooth out, and I'm not the patient type. Just my random thoughts.

 

[Old Philosopher]

Thanks for the quick responses, gang!
I'm real tempted to go with the straight juice. Last year I harvested only enough plums to make 1.5 gal, and that was stretching it. Now I have 5 gal of syrup! (Seriously, if I reduced it by 1/3 it would be pancake syrup!) The way it is, it would make a great cordial. And I still have 50 lbs hanging on my tree!
I haven't checked the SG, but will when I top off the 5 gal carboy.

Slightly veering off topic, but it does involve dilution.
I pressed 4 gal of white grape juice. About 52 lbs of grapes. I checked the SG and it was 1.054. Tasted like grape juice. I added 1/8 tsp K-meta for the wild yeast, but didn't get back to the batch for 2 days. The SG today was down to 1.006! So much for the K-meta!
So....I topped off the primary to 5 gal, added 12 cu (6 lbs) sugar and now the SG is only 1.054! Huh??? Back to tasting like grape juice, but not my target SG by a long shot. I made a syrup from the juice to add the sugar, so undissolved sugar is not the issue.
Do I keep adding sugar to get up to my 1.090 target, or let it rest and think about it for 24 hrs?

Never a dull moment when it comes to grapes..... Grrrr....

 

[ceeaton]

Thanks for the quick responses, gang!
I'm real tempted to go with the straight juice. Last year I harvested only enough plums to make 1.5 gal, and that was stretching it. Now I have 5 gal of syrup! (Seriously, if I reduced it by 1/3 it would be pancake syrup!) The way it is, it would make a great cordial. And I still have 50 lbs hanging on my tree!
I haven't checked the SG, but will when I top off the 5 gal carboy.

Slightly veering off topic, but it does involve dilution.
I pressed 4 gal of white grape juice. About 52 lbs of grapes. I checked the SG and it was 1.054. Tasted like grape juice. I added 1/8 tsp K-meta for the wild yeast, but didn't get back to the batch for 2 days. The SG today was down to 1.006! So much for the K-meta!
So....I topped off the primary to 5 gal, added 12 cu (6 lbs) sugar and now the SG is only 1.054! Huh??? Back to tasting like grape juice, but not my target SG by a long shot. I made a syrup from the juice to add the sugar, so undissolved sugar is not the issue.
Do I keep adding sugar to get up to my 1.090 target, or let it rest and think about it for 24 hrs?

Never a dull moment when it comes to grapes..... Grrrr....

Well, wild yeast has already taken your initial SG from 1.054 to 1.006, so at that point you had about 6% alcohol in your 4 gallons of must/wine. Now you've diluted it with water and added 6 lbs of sugar, but that alcohol hasn't gone away. Yes, it's less than the original 6%, but there is still alcohol present. Obviously it would have been easier to add the sugar initially so you could get a SG reading and determine the final alcohol value. At this point you have a more complex problem to figure out. 1 - you have your initial volume and SG readings. 2 - you added about 1 gallon of water, then sugar to exisiting juice to get an SG of 1.054. We need to know that final volume to figure out how much alcohol you will have at the end. I'm showing you should have ended up with 5.444 gallons after adding the sugar, is this correct? If so I think we can use FermCalc to figure out your final alcohol level, depending on what the final SG is.

Doing quickie math, I think the alcohol level after adding the gallon of water dropped to 4.8%. So if you ferment the 1.054 (5 gllons) to dry at .990, you would add about 8.5% more alcohol, so you'd end up with a wine with 13+ % alcohol, and I imagine a rather thin wine at this point.

Hope that helps. Someone please chime in if my figures are wrong, it is Saturday and I have had a few drinks.

 

[Old Philosopher]

Well, wild yeast has already taken your initial SG from 1.054 to 1.006, so at that point you had about 6% alcohol in your 4 gallons of must/wine. Now you've diluted it with water and added 6 lbs of sugar, but that alcohol hasn't gone away. Yes, it's less than the original 6%, but there is still alcohol present. Obviously it would have been easier to add the sugar initially so you could get a SG reading and determine the final alcohol value. At this point you have a more complex problem to figure out. 1 - you have your initial volume and SG readings. 2 - you added about 1 gallon of water, then sugar to exisiting juice to get an SG of 1.054. We need to know that final volume to figure out how much alcohol you will have at the end. I'm showing you should have ended up with 5.444 gallons after adding the sugar, is this correct? If so I think we can use FermCalc to figure out your final alcohol level, depending on what the final SG is.

Doing quickie math, I think the alcohol level after adding the gallon of water dropped to 4.8%. So if you ferment the 1.054 (5 gllons) to dry at .990, you would add about 8.5% more alcohol, so you'd end up with a wine with 13+ % alcohol, and I imagine a rather thin wine at this point.

Hope that helps. Someone please chime in if my figures are wrong, it is Saturday and I have had a few drinks.

I will differ to your figures, Cree, especially since I flunked Wine Math 101.
But wait...there's more!
Between crushing 50# of grapes, 95# of plums, and helping pick 3.5 bushels of apples, I sorta got lost. I failed to go over my notes after a 2 day absence.
It turns out I had 3 gal of grape juice, which was at the 1.054 SG. I topped that up to 4 gal, but failed to take a second SG reading. So...when I came back today, the 1.006 SG was probably spot on considering I'd already diluted it. THEN I topped it up to 5 gallon.
So now I have 3 gallons of grape juice in a 5 gallon batch. Ack!! But never fear! 12 lbs of sugar later I pitched my EC-1118 and nutrient in at SG 1.094.
Now, I've maintained for a couple years that a person could make wine from Kool-Aid, and the only reason you can't make Stone Wine is because rocks don't ferment. I guess we'll find out with this batch. I see about 4 cans of Welch's as back sweetening when the time comes. Store-bought frozen flavor pak. Whee! Glad I'm not a connoisseur.

But as for the OP, my 5 gallons of plum juice is hot off the press at 1.070 SG.
Cree, if you don't mind, how much sugar will I need to bring this 5 gallons up to SG 1.090?

 

[ceeaton]

...
But as for the OP, my 5 gallons of plum juice is hot off the press at 1.070 SG.
Cree, if you don't mind, how much sugar will I need to bring this 5 gallons up to SG 1.090?

To take 5 gallons at 1.070 up to 1.090, my FermCalc program is showing an addition of 2.5691 pounds (or 41.106 ounces) of sugar, with a resulting volume of 5.1912 gallons.

 

[Old Philosopher]

Thanks, Craig! I NEED that program.

Paul

 

[Old Philosopher]

To take 5 gallons at 1.070 up to 1.090, my FermCalc program is showing an addition of 2.5691 pounds (or 41.106 ounces) of sugar, with a resulting volume of 5.1912 gallons.

If you don't have a good scale (which I don't), here's a handy conversion on-line calculator:

http://www.onlineconversion.com/weight_volume_cooking.htm

Shows I need 5.829 cups of granulated sugar. Thanks again!

 

[ceeaton]

Thanks, Craig! I NEED that program.

Paul

It's free and you can get it for a hand held device or a desktop. Just need to be able to run Java applications:

http://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_download.html

 

[Old Philosopher]

It's free and you can get it for a hand held device or a desktop. Just need to be able to run Java applications:

http://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_download.html

Yeah, well...FireFox blocks all Java scripts. Windows10 choked on the download and couldn't figure out how to open the program.
I finally got a working copy running the JavaScript on-line version under Chrome. Whew....
It will be a great help. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[bubblythorn]

I know this is an old thread, but I have plumb nectar with the mashed fruit with a potential alcohol reading of 20% (so I think it was a specific gravity of 1.155). Hard to tell how much the pectins are influencing my reading. It is also so thick even strained that it takes 15 mins for my hydrometer to stop sinking. The recipes I find online tell me to dilute with sugar and water but I would like to try a wild ferment as is. Hard to tell how much the pectins are influencing my reading. My though is to get some pectin enzymes, but this post is leaving me hopeful that other than that I can ignore all the recipes and just ferment as is??

 

[BigDaveK]

Before committing you could mix a small sample 1:1 to get the SG but more importantly to see how it tastes. Personally I'm in the more fruit less water camp, if possible.

My biggest reservation about doing a wild ferment is that you just don't know for sure what you'll end up with.

 

[Rice_Guy]

I agree with Dave. Specific Gravity is a linear function. To do a guestimate dilute 1:1 with distilled water, ,, Take your reading, ,, Subtract one from the dilution reading. ,, multiply that fraction by two, ,, Add one back to this number to have a gravity estimate.

There is a property called water activity. Basically high solids pull water out of the yeast cell which kills the yeast. I wouldn’t try over15% potential alcohol, without a high power yeast strain.

 

[winemaker81]

I know this is an old thread, but I have plumb nectar with the mashed fruit with a potential alcohol reading of 20% (so I think it was a specific gravity of 1.155). Hard to tell how much the pectins are influencing my reading. It is also so thick even strained that it takes 15 mins for my hydrometer to stop sinking. The recipes I find online tell me to dilute with sugar and water but I would like to try a wild ferment as is. Hard to tell how much the pectins are influencing my reading. My though is to get some pectin enzymes, but this post is leaving me hopeful that other than that I can ignore all the recipes and just ferment as is??

Assuming your SG reading is correct, the wine will not ferment out dry. Commercial wine yeast strains top at 18%.

At this point, pectin is not a problem -- not having clear liquid to test is the problem. I suggest you do as Dave and David suggested, and dilute a sample with distilled water. Straining a sample through a sanitized strainer will also help.

That said, pectic enzyme will help break down the fruit and improve extraction; I add it to all fruit wines.

Regarding recipes and winemaking, you can do anything you want. The problem with winging it is that the results have a strong likelihood of not turning out well. The processes that folks recommend on this forum produce good results. I suggest you read this post before proceeding. It will take 15 minutes and will give you a basic understanding of the process.

 

[Hazelemere]

I've searched on several occasions, but haven't found a straight answer yet, so here goes:
I have juiced ~90 lbs of Italian Plums, giving me right at 5 gallons of syrupy juice. What would be a reasonable dilution of this juice to still maintain flavor?
Based upon my limited experience, I'm guessing 1:1 with water would be okay.
Any thoughts, advice....shocked looks...?

8 lbs pitted plums per 1 Imperial gallon of water and 3 lbs cane sugar plus pectic enzyme as table wine. If you want to have some fun go to a Greek delicatessen and buy Turkish or California calimyrna dried figs and sultanas to make some of your plums into a sherry with EC 1118 yeast with or without dried elderberries topped up with Gran Marnier, Metaxa or Drambuie with or without medium toast American oak cubes. Costco also has them. If you can bake your sherry in an attic over summer 2024 you'll get a nice caramel flavour. I add 1 bottle of Drambuie to 5 gallons of attic wine with the oak cubes at the end of spring. Take it out of the attic in the fall when the weather cools down. This is really tasty and will age for 10 years in the cool e.g. basement or a cooler away from any heat source It will taste good by Xmas 2024.

Here is a sherry recipe:

28 lb pitted prune plums
7 lb dried figs
7 lb sultana raisins
7 lb overripe bananas
1/2 lb dried elderberries
6.5 US gallons of water
3 tsp yeast nutriet
2 tbsp pectic enyme
remove fruit ~SG 1.003
cane sugar to SG 1.085-1.095

start adding corn sugar at alcohol ~15%. You have enough plums to make 1 batch of table wine and 1 batch of sherry.