Dizzy's wine journey

[winemaker81]

I don't have an answer on the flip bottles. They should seal fine and can be stored upright. But will oxygen pass the seal? I'd not store them on their side, in case the acid in the wine reacts with the seal.

If it was me, I'd bottle a few in flip bottles and the remainder in corkable bottles. Test a flip every 3 months against a regular to see if there are differences. If after a year there are none, I'd call it a success.

 

[dizzy]

So I finally racked off of the sediment. Soooo crazy last couple months, extra shifts/interviews/new jobs. Finally had to cut back slightly and stabilize things and I have a more organized schedule with regular time off now. Yay! Back to the vino...

There was very little in the Riesling which is tbh DAYUM good right now. I just added some opti white and I very well may bottle in a month or so. Main things I'm getting are peach and honeysuckle. But it's still dry. There were some crystals in the bottom? Not as much sediment, assuming because I started with juice not must.

The Cab is coming along nicely. I had put 1.5oz of French oak cubes in back in December. I'm unsure if I still need more. I am getting a lot of fruity cherry still on the back of it. It's JUST a touch like cherry cough syrup now...before it was tasting more like that. Gotta dig out the ph gauge I bought couple months ago and misplaced...

Good news is our wedding is not looking good for this year, lots of time to prepare lol!

 

[dizzy]

Also I still have all the pressed must (with a decent amount of juice in them bc we hand squeezed)...I think it's good for one more round. It's the must from 80lbs of Cab Sauv grapes- realistically how many gallons juice should I be adding here?

I don't want to do cab again so I guess it will be a "blend". Was thinking a Shiraz from PI wine but it's getting closer to Gino Pinto season which would save me a lil $$. IDK, I guess it's not important if the juice is crazy better quality from one or the other Anyone have experience with GP's Chilean/S African wines? Malbec, Carmenere, Pinotage all seem like interesting options. Any recommendations as I do my research?

 

[dizzy]

Riesling is even better than before- win!
The cab is still weird but doesn't have that cherry stronger taste anymore that was a little off putting. Surprised how different it tastes now since last time. I feel like it needs some more body/tannins still- it's like, thin. Do I put more oak, or do I add tannin?

Still haven't decided on what white wine juice to add to the cab I have frozen for my *******ized rose. Maybe I'll call it yin yang rose (I'm an acupuncturist). I had a bottle of orange wine and a dry rose made with cabernet sauvignon and really didn't come to any conclusion on how I want it to taste (other than not totally cloying). We will see...

We are looking for a new wedding venue and it's dependent on our and their availability so we aren't exactly sure how long the rose (or the cab for that matter) will have to age! An experiment to be sure...
There also is some question about if we can have glass bottles or not in some venues so keeping that in mind. Maybe no flip bottles after all.

 

[Ajmassa]

not sure why i haven’t come across this thread at all till now. So much info to take in! surprised to see so few replies in here too. will try to help out and cover most of your questions as best i can.

first off, congrats on what sounds like a successful 1st attempt so far.
I’ve always used opti-white/red in primary fermentation, not after. but sounds like you had good results w/ the opti-white. nice.

Surprised how different it tastes now since last time. I feel like it needs some more body/tannins still- it's like, thin. Do I put more oak, or do I add tannin?

As far as the cab goes— i wouldn’t mess with it anymore. Just let it be, continue your racking and so2 protocol—- and hold off on bottling as long as you can stand. I’ll bulk age minimum 1 year. Lately longer. Once it’s in the bottle it will disappear! And at 6 mos. it’s still just a baby. It will only improve.
it’s also so easy to ruin a wine tinkering too much with unnecessary acid tweaking or finishing tannins. These first few months show dramatic transformation. Now it can age & improve.

The Cab is coming along nicely. I had put 1.5oz of French oak cubes in back in December. I'm unsure if I still need more.

Only person who can determine the oak is you. if you think it needs more then add some more. If you overdo it don’t worry as it will fade a bit over time.

i got the other WA cab at keystone and it’s a monster. The red mt. big flavor. great color. big tannin. will need some time to calm down.

also normally after primary and pressing grapes there is always substantial sediment. that initial dropout (aka the heavy/gross lees) has a lot of junk in it and can give the wine off flavors. Typical move is another racking again in a few days to get it off the heavy lees. Then again after mlf completes. then every 3-4 months. Very happy to see everything going so well for ya.

 

[Ajmassa]

For the upcoming season- mulling over what you plan to make is part of the fun. especially around here with so many local options. i wouldn’t assume any extra volume from the frozen skins. whatever they add will just be a bonus. when deciding amounts- just remember the juice is only sold in buckets- 5 or 6gal increments.

Also I still have all the pressed must (with a decent amount of juice in them bc we hand squeezed)...I think it's good for one more round. It's the must from 80lbs of Cab Sauv grapes- realistically how many gallons juice should I be adding here?

*The amount of frozen skins to juice ratio doesn’t matter. Could add it all to one or split up into 2 buckets. I once added 300lbs worth of lightly pressed cab skins to one 6gal bucket of syrah. Was basically sludge. Was difficult to punchdown and stir and was nervous i overdid it. But the resulting came out excellent.

another cool thing about adding the skins is they still have active yeast in em. so when adding to a pail of juice you wouldn’t need to add any yeast (or malo had you co-inoculated—-i am a loyal co-inoculator. never had an issue). once temps rise up a bit it will take off like gangbusters.

Don’t hesitate to bump brix by adding some sugar to the juice too. they are usually pre balanced to around 1.090. So around 13% fully dry. i like to get them to 1.100 (between 23.5-24 brix)

Anyone have experience with GP's Chilean/S African wines? Malbec, Carmenere, Pinotage all seem like interesting options. Any recommendations as I do my research?

As far as what to get- that’s on you! ive made cali buckets & chilean. They all seemed to be right in par with each other tbh. But the Regina juice from Procacci in the fall has been my go-to for juice.

last spring i did a malbec from grapes and another juice/grape mix. franc & sauv buckets with PV grapes. Been defaulting to malbec grapes in spring because well, it’s south america and that’s what they do best! Stole some juice at crush and made a rosé too. Did the same in the fall and will do again this year.


Morewine sells a red/white $5 fermentation additive pack for frozen must but its perfect for juice buckets too. especially when adding grapes or skins. contains:
1. lallzyme EX enzymes- helps extract everything the skins have to offer
2. opti red- for color retention
3. fermaid K- nutrient
4. GoFerm - nutrient for hydrating the yeast
5. FT Rouge- fermentation tannin aides body & mouthfeel

https://morewinemaking.com/products/additive-pack-brehm-frozen-fruit-reds.htmlLooks like the USD is already starting to go to ****! the $5 additive pack is now $8.
(i try to make all my online purchases from morewine at once. free shipping on orders over $60)

 

[winemaker81]

I missed the last posts as well.

The cab is still weird but doesn't have that cherry stronger taste anymore that was a little off putting. Surprised how different it tastes now since last time. I feel like it needs some more body/tannins still- it's like, thin. Do I put more oak, or do I add tannin?

I agree, go easy on the tinkering, as the wine will be changing in upcoming months. You can try glycerin later to improve body.

Also I still have all the pressed must (with a decent amount of juice in them bc we hand squeezed)...I think it's good for one more round. It's the must from 80lbs of Cab Sauv grapes- realistically how many gallons juice should I be adding here?

It's probably too late at this point, but for a 2nd run the rule of thumb is add 1 gallon water for 2 gallons wine. Some measure this only with free run juice, I do a light pressing. If you're hand squeezing, that counts as a very light press.

This year I reduced the water from 50% to ~40%, to get a richer wine.

 

[Ajmassa]

Also, for anyone interested- managed to get the rough areas these grapes were coming from. They said the WA riesling was from Treveri Cellars (Rattlesnake Hills AVA!) and the WA cab sauv was from grapes from Inland Desert nursery which is real near to Red Mountain AVA, east of Benton City. Maybe they can't call the grapes from that AVA (they offered a separate "Red Mountain" cab) since they aren't from a winery, but a nursery, or there's grapes from other areas in the mix.

Yep. i got that other one. the separate Red Mt cab. you didn’t come across more info for them did you? Some grapes they offer details. others are vague. All ya get is “grapes from paso robles”. or “red mt.” w/ nothing else.

But “an inland desert nursery east of benton city near red mt.” sounds somewhat specific. i bet you could find out specifics with a little digging. a lot of vineyards or nurseries w/ excess fruit selling in bulk post it to winebusiness.com

At Keystone a lot of their business overlaps with the separate winery behind them, Stone & Key Cellars. They got the same grapes i did too. I tried getting them to share some details & lab info with me with no luck. this pissed me off and turned it into a competition! lol. When their ‘20 cab is released i’ll be curious to see how mine compares.

 

[dizzy]

I didn't happen to ask @Ajmassa about the separate Red Mt. cab...that area is great though.
"Inland Desert Nursery" is actually the name though. It's not a winery per se, it's a nursery that grows vines and sells to local wineries and rando people I guess? What it sounds like is they just sell the grapes from the vines that they grow there to develop and sell to vineyards. Inland Desert Nursery – Certified Clean Grapevine Nursery in Washington State

Anyway, we finally have a date! 10/23/21. I was freaking out since our original venue got weird/expensive and then everywhere was too expensive and/or booked and/or made us use their catering and booze. In the end we have a super dope place at a good price, it's called Appel Farm in south Jersey. Besides being this awesome non profit for the arts I've had good experiences with (some gigs there, super nice people) they have a huge professional kitchen and all the tables and chairs I can dream of. So besides the booze, DIY food is gonna be reasonable. TWO! I said, TWO! steam tables, swoon.

So I guess I'll give my ******* rose a go when the buckets come in soon- it'll have 6 months. Still not sure on the juice!

I also came to the conclusion about not bottling until closer to the date. I'll let it bulk age another few months why not.

 

[dizzy]

Wooo got my joos today. Drove down to Gino Pinto's since the bucket I ordered was in. This wine is going to be so weird- I decided to grab some South African semillon...letting that roll with some Rhone 4600 I scored cheap to get some mouthfeel going for a few days. Had just enough time to get that set up before heading into work and when I get home my big bucket is sanitized to thaw my leftover cab sauv skins that had RC212 on them. I'm going to give them some time to come to room temperature and then in a couple days add the juice. THEN after a day or something pull the skins at which point it will be a totally rando rose hopefully. Battle of the ferments...I think the RC212 will win in the end but what do I know?

I'm not sure I heard of anyone doing something like this...fermenting a white juice with red skins to make rose...maybe it's stupid, who knows! Really hoping it does something more like a orange (ie white- skin fermented) wine than a normal fruity rose, IDK. For sure though it will be unique.

Bonus points that I can name it ZA-million (rim shot)...also a nod to my fiance's habit of "making people millionaires" by adding in a Zimbabwe million dollar bill in with the tip at restaurants.

 

[winemaker81]

I'm not sure I heard of anyone doing something like this...fermenting a white juice with red skins to make rose...maybe it's stupid, who knows!

This is an intriguing idea. Since roses are often made by crushing reds and letting them sit on the skins for a few hours before pressing, i suspect you want to go light on the skins and you may need to pull them quicker than you think. If you leave the skins in for the full fermentation, you may get a wine that's darker than you expect.

 

[dizzy]

Yes, I'm going to make sure I do this on a day I can watch it. Really no idea what to expect.
I think it's so funny though...like a ******* rose of Bordeaux grapes (except the grapes are from Washington and the juice from the other hemisphere). The sort of thing you can only do if you make it yourself!

Also I asked them about where it's from...they said they only know region on the actual grapes and only that the juice is from "South Africa". Told me that he'd have to email somebody to try to find an answer, while looking at me like I have three heads. Um, am I the only person that's curious what region or even vineyard this stuff is from? Anyway I asked nicely and they took down my email, we will see if there is any answer.

 

[dizzy]

Alright! 4 days in and today was skins day.

What I did was on day 1 (mid afternoon) get my semillon juice started and then take out the frozen cab sauv skins in another bucket.
The semillon got the Rhone 4600 and the cab sauv already had been inoculated with RC212.

Day 3 later in the day I took about a liter of semillon juice and added it to the cab skins to juice up a bit. Is that a thing. Renegade style haha. The semillon was kinda hazy and had a foamy skin on it...I think this was because I didn't mix the yeast well enough at the start and it's been slowly mixing in better. The cab skins already smelling good.

Day 4 (today) got home from work. The semillon had cleared up by now, smells great, normal foam. Added somewhere around 4 gallons semillon juice to the cab skins pail. Hour and a half later it was a nice rose looking color so I pulled it- squeezing out the rest of the skins. Both pails smelling even better in just that short time. The cab is already getting some strawberry kinda smell to it and the semillon is more pear and floral maybe.

Brix is already down to 14...rollin along....

Pic 1 is the semillon, pic 2 is my rose juice, pic 3 is after I squeezed the grapes bag out.

 

[dizzy]

Amazingly I got a reply back from Gino Pinto on the South African juice.

"South African Whites are coming from the Breede valley which is relatively broad and flat for a Western Cape valley, averaging at a floor height of 80m-250m above sea-level. Western regions are mostly alluvial and flat, The valley is framed by the high mountains of the Cape Fold Belt, Its namesake, the Breede River, flows through the broad valley as a consequent stream Grapes in these areas are typically late ripening."

 

[dizzy]

Don't try this at home kids...
Racked the rose last night...ran it as dry as I could. Once again have messed up on the carboy situation- thought we had a 5 gal, nope, it's 6, and turns out too much head space. Otherwise had 4 1-gallon jugs...

We racked, argon'd the crud out of it, and I guess I'll run by the store after work to get some top up stuff. Again. Sigh.

Color is bubblegum pink, our family members who like Arbor Mist will feel included. Seriously tho, it's interesting...first thing I get is like strawberry/rhubarb? But then some vague but pleasant florals...um, I'm not sure- honeysuckle? Mouthfeel is real though, very smooth, not sure how to describe it. Anyway it's weirdo and I think it will be great.

Here's a contrast pic with the Riesling and Cab Sauv in the back.

 

[dizzy]

About 3 months out from the big day, kids!

Took one last taste test of the cab and the rose- both are coming along nicely. Whatever was going on the cab that I wasn't sure about has settled down- still definitely a lot of fruit in it, but the tannins are coming through finally, it's starting to taste more like a normal, aged red. Rose is great, very subtle flavors, but does have a lil acidity. Tastes like, a rose- what I was going for, coolio! Even though it's dry I think the people in my family who go towards a little more sweetness (cough, arbor mist, reunite) will still dig it because it's not so bold.

I'm starting to think about bottling. Original plan is bottle in the swing tops my fiance has. He has only about 2 cases though and that won't be enough.
I'm thinking practicality- cleanup will be hella easier at the end of the night using bags. Lighter to carry these bad boys too (tho I have fiance to help with that
I would need 6 3L bags per 5 gal, and 7 for the 6 gal, with some leftover. Can get this number down with putting some in bottles. It's a decent amount of boxes to get though. Otherwise we'll need around 80 bottles.

I'm definitely sure we will drink all of the wine within the year...supposedly this is going to be more than enough for our group to party at least 6 hours (how long we think, but we dunno...have the venue all night

Is doing the bags any easier than normal bottling? I am leaning towards this now ESPECIALLY if it will be easier than individual bottling (I mean, it has to be right? Filling 25 bags vs 80 bottles?)

 

[Rice_Guy]

Bags are easy. EVOH transparent oxygen barrier bags are available on Amazon. I like the metalized oxygen barrier bags and given a choice would use them.
? ,, ? for short term party storage 1.5 liter screw top bottles work, recycled bottles and caps probably are better than natural cork for oxygen resistance, I do some screw caps on every bottle run, mainly for taking to vinters meetings,,, but bag in box is also good technology.
The main issue on bag in box is to hold the spout in some type of clamp while you are filling. I assume they are sterile out of the box. ,,, They always hold more than the volume rating when inserted in the cardboard box. I have some here that hold about 4.5 gallons.

what else? one market for them is wine to use for top off in a winery. This is since they can deliver wine and keep zero head space inside the box, ,,, and I use them as variable capacity small carboys.

 

[dizzy]

So we think we have a plan, kinda...
My fiance has generously volunteered to bottle. We are going to use the BIB bags that have the dual spout since it's easier. We have saved a massive amount of money overall, we can afford to spend a tiny amount here to make it simpler. I tried contacting local coffee shops but I didn't like that their bags didn't have the tap, and it was just as expensive as ordering the wine specific ones.

So plan is for the cab and the riesling:
1 10L box, 1 5L box, and then bottle the rest in the 1L swingtops he has to give us 4 bottles to keep (8 total between the 2)
Then for the rose 2 10L box, and about 3 bottles in 1L swingtops.

So I can just order 2 sets of 10L bags (2 each) and 1 set of 5L bags, and be done with it. About $36 but I had amazon credits, so only $12.
If we don't get to the 2nd box of rose, it's my band's 15th anniversary the week after, I'm sure there will be a use for it.

I'm debating on whether I will get a fancy box or try to rig something up. I found these:
https://wineloversonline.com/produc...tm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google ShoppingTBH I'm really surprised I can't find anywhere else that sells these? But price/quality looks good.

I think probably I will just get them since it's again, one less thing to worry about. Slap a label on them and done. They are $7 each.

 

[dizzy]

The day we have all been waiting for...bottling day!

Fiance took care of it, lol. He's the best!

Unfortunately I was at work and didn't get to sample. BUT! he said it was "really f'ing good" and he does not really love wine. Thankyouuuuu. I think he was a little skeptical of my plan, and just like, doing this huge project with little experience (tho he guided me a bit with the sanitation, since he had done it many times for cider/mead). As I know with cooking tho: good ingredients make all the difference.

We both agreed that cab is inky AF. Awesome.

He did go a little gungho on the filling of the bags, whoops. Hopefully people like rose?

 

[dizzy]

Used Canva to make wine labels. It was a very easy process- they have quite a few templates available. Here's one of them.